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8471 messages, Last post on Nov 27, 2009 at 11:10 AM
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Replying to: cooterbfd (May 24, 2009 4:47 pm) "What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking the point further, if the gas engine is rated for only 100 hp (our estimate of its power output), the 149-hp electric motor will be able to make only 100 hp." Since the conversion to electricity carries losses, if the conversion is 80% efficient (probably a high estimate), that leaves 80hp to propel the vehicle after 40 miles have been reached. This is a midsized car with a 400lb battery pack. It will have 80hp in this example to propel the car. That's not much power for a heavy midsized car. The realities will be discovered when the car actually becomes real rather than vaporware, but it is very likely to be a slug over 40 miles, once the battery is discharged.
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Replying to: dave8697 (May 24, 2009 5:50 pm) Throw in bad timing, You are very generous. It was bad strategy. |
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Replying to: bpizzuti (May 24, 2009 6:40 pm) While a hybrid minivan sounds like an intriguing idea, the batteries and powertrain would take a considerable space of the passenger cabin which would dilute the very idea of buying a minivan. The minivans seem like a dying breed, and their maximum space efficiency is the only reason why anyone would buy them over a crossover. What would really break new ground is an electric vehicle powered solely by an electric motor, while a tiny ICE engine operates all the time, only to recharge the battery. Unless I am missing something, this is the ultimate 'dependable' green car. |
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Replying to: tlong (May 24, 2009 8:05 pm) This article should explain it nicely: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/c_d_staff/csaba_csere_the_steering_- column/fearless_prediction_plug_in_hybrids_will_be_the_hot_rods_of_the_21st_cent- ury_column
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 24, 2009 10:56 am) I said 40 miles round trip, as in 40 miles total. Taking the bus is possible. But I agree with you, that's to each of his/her own, so let's just leave the public transport out of this. I think that is a valid point, since there is really no financial benefit to having a Prius. I thought you disagreed with me on that previously. I see the benefit of buying Insight or Prius over Volt, and I didn't mention Fit as we're comparing hybrids here. But yes, I also see the benefit of buying Fit over Prius, which is why in another thread I made a post a while ago saying I'd rather buy a Fit than a Prius if I have to choose. So how far does it have to be according to you to make sense? Hmm meets the needs of 80% of the population... Say 40 miles meets the needs of 80% of the population, I believe you. But does that mean Volt is the answer to that particular group? Let's do a simple math on fuel costs for roughly 300 days, assuming fuel cost $3/ gallon: 1. A Volt costing $40k, can run on 0 fuel for 40 miles. Fuel costs over 300 days = close to $0 2. A Honda Fit costing $15k, gets 40 mpg, means it needs 1 gallon of fuel/ day = $3. Fuel cost over 300 days = $900, $1000 max. See the problem here? Even if there's a $7,500 rebate for Volt it'll take decades to recover the price difference. Plus, remember that Volt's complex technology is much more likely to have higher maintenance costs than Fit's much simpler tech. Even compared to Prius/Insight, Volst is much more complex and will likely to cost more to keep. How does that meet the needs of 80% of the population? Tell me. |
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Replying to: m4d_cow (May 25, 2009 4:38 am)
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Replying to: m4d_cow (May 25, 2009 4:38 am) How is it more complex? Battery powers electric motor, engine drives generator to power battery. Very simple. BTW, not to nitpick, but the Fit is rated at 33 on the highway, and 29 overall, not 40. But point well taken, as it only amounts to $12-1300. |
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Replying to: cooterbfd (May 25, 2009 5:11 am) Here's a simple explanation on the economics (This compares a gn3Prius vs. Volt): Hypothetical economic scenario one: six weekly round trips of 35 miles each. In this example, the Volt would never need a drop of gasoline (except for the occasional auto-programmed runs to cycle fuel and oil). If we inflation-adjust today’s electric rates, a recharge will average about one dollar. Annual “fuel” cost: $312. A Prius would take 220 gallons of gas  50mpg to cover the same 11k miles. Assuming $4/gallon in 2011, annual fuel cost is $880. The Volt’s $22k purchase premium over the Prius would take 39 years to amortize. A $40k “subsidized” Volt would take a mere 32 years. These calculations don’t include interest, either on the higher purchase price of the Volt, or on the money saved (opportunity cost). Even if we slash electric rates in half, to 50 cents a charge, it would still take over thirty years to amortize the Volt’s higher purchase price. Comparing the Volt to the plug-in Prius is even less favorable to the Chevy: it would take 58 years to recoup the Volt’s $14k price differential. This = NO SALE for the Volt in my value proposition. Mr. President, "Are You Listening?" Regards, OW
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...Adding a bit of insult to injury, Pontiac and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have announced the recall of 35,038 G8 sedans for two separate issues. General Motors announced earlier this year that the Pontiac brand would be killed by 2010, with the G8 set to ride off into the sunset by the end of the year. According to the NHTSA’s Web site, the Pontiac G8 is being recalled for a brake light issue and a potential problem with the vehicle’s tire pressure monitoring system. The recalls cover all G8s from the 2008 and 2009 model years. Some G8 vehicles may have been equipped with an incorrectly programmed brake pedal position switch from the factory. The defect can lead to the continual illumination of the car’s brake lights, giving other drivers on the road little warning when the vehicle is coming to a stop. Due to the increased risk of crash, Pontiac dealers will begin fixing the problem June 5th. The G8’s second recall involves the vehicle’s tire pressure monitoring system. Some vehicles were equipped with the wrong programming, which could give false tire pressure readings. As a result, the system may not warn the driver when tire pressures fall below safe levels, potentially leading to deteriorated handling or even a crash. Regards, OW |
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Replying to: cooterbfd (May 25, 2009 3:38 am) Um, you're a little lost in the woods. HP and KW are both units of power (energy delivery rate). 1 HP = .745 KW. This is the energy delivery rate for a gasoline engine or electric motor. Gasoline engines and electric motors deliver power to drive wheels, they do not store it. Batteries are energy storage devices. They are rated by the amount of energy they store, not the rate at which they deliver the energy. The correct units for batteries is KWH (kilo watt hours). This measures the total energy they store and can deliver over a period of time. A 1.3 KWH battery can deliver about 1.3 KW for 1 hour, or 2.6 KW for 1/2 hour, or 15.6 KW (20.9 HP) for 5 minutes.
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