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Automotive News & Views GM News, New Models and Market Share
8455 messages, Last post on Nov 26, 2009 at 9:11 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: bpizzuti (May 24, 2009 6:41 am) The answer is supposed to be A, but it seems like a lot of people, GM included, think it's supposed to be B. It's always been answer A but twisted by some to B. The B folks, in the majority, refuse to see that the market will always rule. If market share is going down for company A and increasing for company B and C, there is a direct correlation to the products of company A not doing their job. Can it be more any more simple to understand? Regards, OW
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Replying to: tlong (May 23, 2009 9:29 pm) 1 - throw a generator that can function as a motor on a few vehicles and call them a hybrid: Malibu, Vue "Green Line" (another hype term covering up for no technology). About 1 mpg improvement. Stupid. This is basically autostart-stop technology, just like the original Civic "hybrid." 0 mph is 0 mpg. 2 - develop a highly complex and expensive two-mode hybrid system and throw it on the big gas guzzlers: Escalade, etc. Adds $10K to cost. Payback is >>10 years. Yeah, I think they could do better than a 10% increase in fuel economy on a 6000# vehicle. Another point regarding the Volt. An earlier post said that the Volt is more like the Tesla. Wrong. The Volt is still a HYBRID. Once you've gone 40 miles you are on gasoline power. With a drained battery you can never have more power than that gas engine can give you, you will have less as no energy conversion is 100% efficient. Right, and since something like 75% of the population live withing 40 miles of where they work, it may never turn on. The gasoline engine powers a generator, so I agree that there are losses in efficiency there, but that is allowing you've depleted the battery. So after 40 miles in your Volt, what happens when you need to climb the mountain pass? You are going to be in low gear in the right lane poking along, because your battery is dead! And that wimpy engine has to charge the battery, and the battery is immediately using all that charge to propel you up the hill! So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill! Right, and with the Tesla, you call AAA and get towed home. That sounds wonderful. The Volt might be fine if you rarely go over 40 miles before recharging, but it will have serious usability issues for those who drive longer distances and need range. This will further limit its market. So if it doesn't fit your lifestyle, don't buy one. I don't see why this is so complicated. It sounds like there is one of the biggest logical errors in engineering going on here...assuming everyone else's situation is just like yours.
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Replying to: tlong (May 23, 2009 9:41 pm) I agree, Range Rover has auto-start-stop on their European vehicles, I don't think that makes them a hybrid. Just like the 1st generation Civic Hybrid.
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Replying to: circlew (May 24, 2009 6:47 am)
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Replying to: lemko (May 24, 2009 6:57 am) Along the same lines, google "Toyota" and Vanilla" and see how many hits you get. Maybe OW is right. |
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Replying to: lemko (May 24, 2009 6:00 am) I do understand your feelings on driving a larger more comfortable car. Our society has tried their best to make those of US that consider a vehicle more than just transportation, to feel guilty. I don't see our leaders sacrificing their comfort to save the planet or fossil fuel. I am a little too far from the grocery store to walk, at 2.8 miles. I would be happy with a little car for running errands. When I take a trip even 100 miles up to Los Angeles I want a large comfortable, quiet vehicle. I don't need a $million dollar limo like Barry. The reasons I would like higher mileage is to avoid stopping at a stinking gas station. For me to drop from a 16 MPG Sequoia to a 20 MPG Escape/RAV4/CRV would be crazy. Going to a slightly smaller X5 diesel that gets 30 MPG on the highway and handles better than most sedans on the highway is a good option. Quite frankly GM and the D3 have NOTHING I would consider buying right now. For those that like big sedans the Buick and Caddy are fine. Just not my cup of tea. I have one, the LS400, and only drive it to see when it will break, so I can get rid of it. No more sedans in my future. Not much good on our 3rd world roads in CA. They are going to continue getting worse as we spend all the gas tax on welfare or something besides road maintenance. |
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 24, 2009 6:53 am) What market segment is the Volt targeted at? Not me or anyone I know. Anyone can buy 2 Honda Civics for that price. Let's get your estimate of the sales rate for this unique nameplate from the failed GM. Regards, OW
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 24, 2009 6:53 am) Sure, there are people who commute only about 40 miles a day, but how many of them are there? GM needs the Volt to sell in large numbers to survive, and trying to lure a tiny cadre of takers isn't gonna help. Better yet, if you only drive 40 miles a day, why bother spending 40k on a Volt that needs frequent recharging, new battery every 5 years (according to GM itself), and cost $40k? Buy yourself a $15k Honda Fit and keep the change. It's as roomy as a Prius, and I seriously doubt GM can make Volt any roomier than a Prius. Plus I agree with OW. If you really want to be "green" (or economical, choose whichever you want), then just take the mass transit, 40 miles or less isn't far at all.
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Replying to: circlew (May 24, 2009 9:34 am) I don't think its my mind that is needs opening. In Santa Barbara, my father lives 6 miles from where he works. There is no bus stop there. There is no "high speed rail." From their house to downtown is about 12 miles. Again, no close bus stop, no "metro." The motor in that car would never turn on, even if he went to work AND down town. In Ann Arbor, my wife is maybe 10 miles from where she works (i think its more like 7 miles). There is no bus service within 3 miles of our house. The majority of our neighborhood has at least 1 member of their household working within 15 minutes of home. What market segment is the Volt targeted at? Not me or anyone I know. That might be so, are you jealous or something?
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Replying to: m4d_cow (May 24, 2009 10:36 am) This is where we fundamentally disagree...I think 40 miles on battery only is plenty of range for most commutes in the US. For those times when a family road trip is in order, the on board generator can recharge the battery. Better yet, if you only drive 40 miles a day, why bother spending 40k on a Volt that needs frequent recharging, new battery every 5 years (according to GM itself), and cost $40k? So how far does it have to be according to you to make sense? Hmm meets the needs of 80% of the population... Buy yourself a $15k Honda Fit and keep the change. It's as roomy as a Prius, and I seriously doubt GM can make Volt any roomier than a Prius. Eh, so you are suggesting to buy a Fit instead of a Prius as well? I think that is a valid point, since there is really no financial benefit to having a Prius. I thought you disagreed with me on that previously. Plus I agree with OW. If you really want to be "green" (or economical, choose whichever you want), then just take the mass transit, 40 miles or less isn't far at all. So what huge assumption are you falsely making here...oh that mass transit exists. Can you walk 40 miles? I can bike 40 miles but I don't think I could do 80, and it would be really ugly in the winter. As I said before, living in a bubble and making decisions on what other people want based on your own personal lifestyle is kind of silly.
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