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Automotive News & Views GM News, New Models and Market Share
8475 messages, Last post on Nov 27, 2009 at 11:49 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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cars cost about $7000 a year to own when new. Gasoline makes up $1200 of that year's cost, on average. Higher mpg than 28 mpg, which can be had with mid 90's 3.5-3.8 liter V6's in roomy cars with large trunks, doesn't save you much money. My friend just drove a new Sonata and a new Taurus on the same 900 round mile trip. Both got 30.5 mpg. He got about 33-34 mpg with a new Elantra. The % of the $7000 TCO that we are talking about in fuel savings beyond 28 mpg is small. Maybe the TCO ends up at $6500 if the 47 mpg Hybrid carries all else equal. People buying Prius' to save gas as biggest reason? The per capita income in my town is over $60k and saving $500 in gas per year is a less than 1% impact. The only answer is buy a Foreign car? The mindless chasing of a less than 1% quality difference so that your neighbors end up without jobs. We can all still buy Fords? So why should I suddenly base my car buying decision on Who my car company borrowed it's money from?
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 23, 2009 5:24 am) By selling 1 in 4 vehicles world wide until 2 years ago... picked our pockets of $billions before going under. And getting confused with the banking industry... While GM sold a lot of vehicles, they were riding down from 50% market share to 20% market share over 30 years. I'd call that failing to compete. No argument on the banking industry. But we have given GM billions, too. Don't expect to see it paid back. |
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Replying to: circlew (May 23, 2009 9:27 am) Exactly correct. GM's hybrid strategy has been an abject failure and is the icing on a screwed up cake. Whereas Honda, Toyota, and Ford each put out hybrid vehicles that were only a bit more expensive, but priced mainstream to get some actual volume, GM just HAD to follow with not one, not two, but THREE different hybrid approaches, each approach inferior to Toy, Hon, and Ford: 1 - throw a generator that can function as a motor on a few vehicles and call them a hybrid: Malibu, Vue "Green Line" (another hype term covering up for no technology). About 1 mpg improvement. Stupid. 2 - develop a highly complex and expensive two-mode hybrid system and throw it on the big gas guzzlers: Escalade, etc. Adds $10K to cost. Payback is >>10 years. Read the Edmund's review on the driveability of this abomination. 3 - the Volt. Spend a $$billion or so that GM can't afford, to try and leapfrog everybody else technologically. Advertise it for four years in advance of a real product. Problem is it will cost so much that it can never recoup its development costs or sell in any significant volumes. If it ever makes it to market or succeeds technologically. Another point regarding the Volt. An earlier post said that the Volt is more like the Tesla. Wrong. The Volt is still a HYBRID. Once you've gone 40 miles you are on gasoline power. With a drained battery you can never have more power than that gas engine can give you, you will have less as no energy conversion is 100% efficient. This is basic thermodynamics. So after 40 miles in your Volt, what happens when you need to climb the mountain pass? You are going to be in low gear in the right lane poking along, because your battery is dead! And that wimpy engine has to charge the battery, and the battery is immediately using all that charge to propel you up the hill! So you have, maximum, the amount of energy that wimpy engine can put out to get you over the hill! The Volt might be fine if you rarely go over 40 miles before recharging, but it will have serious usability issues for those who drive longer distances and need range. This will further limit its market. The Tesla makes no bones about it, you go max range on electricity (>200 miles) and it is time to recharge! Not a puny 40 miles like the Volt.
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Replying to: sparkledrive (May 23, 2009 5:45 pm) |
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 23, 2009 5:48 pm) Your definition of hybrid is different than most peoples'. Using your logic the Malibu and Vue hybrids aren't hybrids either, and they are certainly less of a hybrid than the Insight. Hybrids use regenerative braking to charge a battery that helps add power during propulsion. Not a difficult concept. Who cares if the ICE is running if the mileage increases, significantly (vs. dismally like the Vue and Malibu hybrids)? Please provide a link to the definition of hybrid where the ICE can't always run.
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 23, 2009 6:03 pm) Prius 0-60: 11 seconds I said practical, not fast. Hmm a Lexus HS250 probably does...pricing hasn't been release yet...nor has an official price for the Volt. Uh huh, sure let's compare Volt with something from a class higher than it's own right. And how do you think a $40k Lexus will stack up against a $40k Chevy Volt? Lexus HS will be the better choice, being much more luxurious and all. Plus it's backed with Lexus' red carpet customer service. I'm no Lexus fan but if I have to choose between the 2 the HS will definitely be it. Like I said, there's not enough savings for the buyers to justify the Volt's price. |
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Replying to: sparkledrive (May 23, 2009 5:45 pm) |
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 23, 2009 5:43 pm) In case you forgot, it's you who compared Volt with tesla in the beginning. 
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Replying to: dave8697 (May 23, 2009 8:30 pm) Well, there is a very real factor. Let's say you have a Chevy on the one hand, and a Ford on the other. Each one costs the same for the same features (unlikely, I know). The Ford costs you less, because you've ALREADY paid X amount to GM (so have the rest of us) and received nothing in exchange. I find that so interesting, just as a side note...GM requested bailout bucks for nothing in exchange rather than offering some piled up stock either as collateral or even to sell to the government.
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Replying to: tlong (May 23, 2009 9:29 pm) Less than. The Volt operates off of the battery according to the information we've seen, and as you said, some energy is lost in the charging process. That's why current hybrid systems use the engine to power the car, not just charge the battery...to avoid that energy loss. Instead, they take energy that would otherwise be lost (from braking and coasting) and use THAT to charge batteries. By not allowing the engine to power the car directly, they are actually decreasing efficiency. |
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