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32000 messages,  Last post on Feb 14, 2013 at 7:24 PM

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#31119 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [busiris] by keystonecarfan

Jan 24, 2013 (8:54 am)

Replying to: busiris (Jan 23, 2013 2:06 pm)
busiris: What you omitted was that GM and Ford did the very same thing (underestimating the foreign competition), yet MB had no management influence over either of them. All 3 were suffering from what I called "domestic-itus".
 
All three were still very dependent on the U.S. market, and that market tanked dramatically in 2008. That is the common denominator.

#31120 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by busiris

Jan 24, 2013 (9:20 am)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 24, 2013 8:54 am)
All three were still very dependent on the U.S. market, and that market tanked dramatically in 2008. That is the common denominator.
 
Exactly! So, when the reckoning day came for Chrysler, it wasn't because of the former merger with Daimler. My point all along...
 
I remember reading an article written by a now-forgotten financial analyst in 2008/9 that called the big-3 "truck manufacturers that also sold cars".
 
I thought tat was a pretty good analysis of the big-3 at the time.

#31121 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by tlong

Jan 24, 2013 (11:38 am)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 24, 2013 8:54 am)
All three were still very dependent on the U.S. market, and that market tanked dramatically in 2008. That is the common denominator.
 
Honda is also extremely dependent on the US market, yet had nowhere near the problems.
 
IMHO the common denominator is the UAW and the inept US management for many years, partly due to complacency after decades of market leadership.

#31122 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [busiris] by keystonecarfan

Jan 24, 2013 (12:30 pm)

Replying to: busiris (Jan 24, 2013 9:20 am)
Daimler was responsible for the Dodges, Chryslers and Jeeps developed when it owned the company.
 
The products were hardly stellar - with a few exceptions (the 300/Charger and Grand Cherokee) they were INFERIOR to what GM and Ford were offering at that time. A Dodge Caliber, for example, was inferior to a Ford Focus or Chevrolet Cobalt (let alone a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla). The Dodge Stratus/Avenger and Chrysler Sebring developed under Daimler's watch received terrible reviews.
 
Daimler bears sole responsbility for those cars. Are you really going to call the Dodge Caliber a great vehicle, or allow Daimler to escape responsibility for it when it was calling the shots from Germany (this is on the record) and Daimler appointees were running Chrysler (this is also on the record)?
 
Just because all three experienced trouble at the same time doesn't mean it was all for the same reasons. And note that Ford never declared bankruptcy.
 
Nor were the companies equal. The team assembled by the Obama Administration almost considered letting Chrysler go under, for example, as they were unimpressed with its vehicle line-up and figured that the country's economy could withstand the "hit". Meanwhile, they were seriously impresssed with the vehicles that GM either had just introduced, or was preparing to introduce.

#31123 of 32000 Government interference with GM by xrunner2

Jan 24, 2013 (1:02 pm)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 24, 2013 12:30 pm)
Per Keystone: " Meanwhile, they were seriously impresssed with the vehicles that GM either had just introduced, or was preparing to introduce."
 
That is good reason why General Motors, the good parts of it, would have survived and flourished somehow under a standard bankruptcy process without government interference from the Obama Administration.
 
Airlines and other companies had previously went through bankruptcy.
 
In the case of GM, bondholders would have been treated fairly by law rather than what had happened.

#31124 of 32000 Re: Government interference with GM [xrunner2] by bpizzuti

Jan 24, 2013 (1:36 pm)

Replying to: xrunner2 (Jan 24, 2013 1:02 pm)
Keep in mind it was not one but two Administrations that gave GM a government bailout. Two different, theoretically opposite ideologies, also.
 
The bondholders were done. GM's execs had Bush bought and paid for, and GM's union labor already owned Obama. Bondholders never ever stood a chance.

#31125 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by busiris

Jan 24, 2013 (1:57 pm)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 24, 2013 12:30 pm)

Just because all three experienced trouble at the same time doesn't mean it was all for the same reasons. And note that Ford never declared bankruptcy.
 
Each to his own opinion.
 
There is no question that the 3 domestic automakers all suffered from the very same problems.
 
They shared the same labor forces (UAW), and they all hit the wall simultaneously. To attempt to exonerate Chrysler and blame its problems on Daimler is simply a one dimensional view of a multifaceted problem, and I say that without owning, either now, in the past, or any plans in the future, a MB product.
 
IMO, its like blaming your BIL for your car's imploded transmission last week because he drove it once 5 years ago.
 
I won't go into your comment regarding Ford, since its been bludgeoned to death so many times already on these forums.

#31126 of 32000 History lesson... by busiris

Jan 24, 2013 (2:29 pm)

A little refresher article for the big-3 in 2008...
 
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/06/news/companies/big_three_woes/

#31127 of 32000 Buick Encore reviewed in Motor Trend by xrunner2

Jan 24, 2013 (4:30 pm)

March issue of Motor Trend has review on Buick Encore. The base price is $24950. Wonder how many potential buyers in this segment will compare this vehicle against the Honda CRV, which is base priced $2K less, and still buy the Buick. Gas mileage estimates are similar but the Honda has a more powerful engine and world class quality and reliability.

#31128 of 32000 Chevy Caprice police car... by andre1969

Jan 24, 2013 (4:35 pm)

spotted this morning, in Baltimore, MD. Truth be told, style-wise it's a bit of a yawner. Nothing wrong with it, but it just doesn't grab me like the Charger does. But, at least it's still fairly big, RWD, and offered as a V-8!

Messages Page 3113 of 3201

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