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#31098 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [dieselone] by ateixeira

Jan 23, 2013 (12:03 pm)

Replying to: dieselone (Jan 23, 2013 11:50 am)
My 91 Escort GT has the same fabric on the seats (velvetty gray with red piping) as the same era Aerostar. It was a funny detail to notice.

#31099 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [busiris] by steve_ HOST

Jan 23, 2013 (12:20 pm)

Replying to: busiris (Jan 23, 2013 9:20 am)
My wife bought a 1990 Voyager and it had the relatively new 4-speed automatic that imploded at 77K miles/4+ years.
 
We had the 4 cylinder and the transmission was fine. Had head gasket issues but the warranty at the time was 7/70 and I only wound up paying $100 for the one out of warranty repair.
 
Chrysler's minivan was one of the first concept cars I got excited about, ~5 years before they were introduced. I had driven a VW Bus for a year, but the flat floored, FWD minivan was a game changer.
 
And GM has nothing for that slot.

#31100 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [steve_] by andre1969

Jan 23, 2013 (1:07 pm)

Replying to: steve_ (Jan 23, 2013 12:20 pm)
If Ford had played their cards right, they could have claimed the title of first "car like" minivan. Iaccocca had been working on something called the Carousel when he was at Ford, and I think work on it started in 1972. Ultimately it died, and Iaccocca himself was fired, and then took over at Chrysler.
 
l1972 Ford Carousel Concept

#31101 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [andres3] by keystonecarfan

Jan 23, 2013 (1:18 pm)

Replying to: andres3 (Jan 22, 2013 12:03 pm)
Chrysler was not on the verge of collapse in 1998. Saying that just makes Daimler management look even worse - if anything, it looks even dumber than Packard management when it "merged with" (but really bought) a very sick Studebaker in 1954.
 
If Chrysler was on the verge of collapse, then why did Daimler buy it in the first place? It certainly wasn't to rescue the company. That wasn't how Daimler portrayed the merger at the time. Remember, it was Daimler that described it as a "merger of equals."
 
Daimler was building lemons before it took over Chrysler. The company hit trouble in the early 1990s, when Lexus built a car that was just as good (while offering superior reliability) as the S-Class for a much lower price.

#31102 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [busiris] by keystonecarfan

Jan 23, 2013 (1:28 pm)

Replying to: busiris (Jan 22, 2013 12:04 pm)
The cars developed under Daimler, with the exception of the 300/Charger, were WORSE than the cars they replaced. They were developed by Daimler personnel and under Daimler guidelines. The company bears the ultimate responsibility.
 
Daimler underestimated what it would take to compete directly with Honda and Toyota during these years. When Lexus debuted, Mercedes could get by for a few years on the strength of its styling cues and heritage. Lexus had one weakness - it looked like a super-size Toyota. The Mercedes S-Class and E-Class looked like a Mercedes, which carried (and still carries) a lot of weight.
 
Dodge and Chrysler didn't have that luxury when competing directly with Honda and Toyota. Competing in the mass market is a whole different ball of wax than competing in the more rarified luxury market.

#31103 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by fintail

Jan 23, 2013 (1:39 pm)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 23, 2013 1:28 pm)
The design of the original LS400 was pretty much cribbed from the W126, and the 2001 LS was very much related to the design of the W140. Toyota did indeed build a much more reliable/easier to maintain version of a lower line S-class, but was definitely sold at a loss for the first several years, too. And to this day, even with its positives, has a hard time competing with the original, especially on the global market.
 
I still say it was revenge. Some of the Daimler-Chrysler decisions and products didn't even appear to be trying. The three pointed star could recover from errors - it has arguably the most brand equity of any automotive logo. The Mopar brands would be handicapped for longer.

#31104 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by lemko

Jan 23, 2013 (1:45 pm)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 23, 2013 1:18 pm)
Before Lexus, Mercedes built cars of outstanding quality as cost was not yet an object. When Mercedes tried to build cars at a cost-point as did Lexus, they fell flat on their faces.

#31105 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by busiris

Jan 23, 2013 (2:06 pm)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 23, 2013 1:28 pm)
The cars developed under Daimler, with the exception of the 300/Charger, were WORSE than the cars they replaced. They were developed by Daimler personnel and under Daimler guidelines. The company bears the ultimate responsibility.
 
 
You're correct, in saying that the folks in charge bear ultimate responsibility.
 
Daimler underestimated what it would take to compete directly with Honda and Toyota during these years.
 
 
Correct again. I posted the very same info from an article from the time period Cerberus took control.
 
What you omitted was that GM and Ford did the very same thing (underestimating the foreign competition), yet MB had no management influence over either of them. All 3 were suffering from what I called "domestic-itus".
 
When Lexus debuted, Mercedes could get by for a few years on the strength of its styling cues and heritage. Lexus had one weakness - it looked like a super-size Toyota. The Mercedes S-Class and E-Class looked like a Mercedes, which carried (and still carries) a lot of weight.
  
Dodge and Chrysler didn't have that luxury when competing directly with Honda and Toyota. Competing in the mass market is a whole different ball of wax than competing in the more rarified luxury market.
 
Seems to me that history shows us that GM and Ford suffered from the same ailment. Unless someone can demonstrate Chrysler had a plan to effectively compete against the foreign competition (but somehow MB kept it from being implemented) it seems to me to be a moot point. Chrysler's direction was already cast in stone before MB ever took control.
 
That's the only point I'm making...

#31106 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [busiris] by robr2

Jan 23, 2013 (2:10 pm)

Replying to: busiris (Jan 23, 2013 2:06 pm)
MB and Chrysler - keep in mind the most important thing in that merger was the $12 billion Chrysler had and wasn't spending on model development. That was the real synergy of the merger.

#31107 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [robr2] by busiris

Jan 23, 2013 (2:26 pm)

Replying to: robr2 (Jan 23, 2013 2:10 pm)
MB and Chrysler - keep in mind the most important thing in that merger was the $12 billion Chrysler had and wasn't spending on model development. That was the real synergy of the merger.
 
Is that fact, or supposition?
 
I can't say one way or the other, but I find it questionable to think that Chrysler dropped its development programs completely.
 
Edit:From Wikipedia...

Chrysler had suffered a series of setbacks in recent years, culminating in DaimlerChrysler's agreement to sell the unit to Cerberus Capital Management in May 2007 for US$6 billion. Through most of its history, Chrysler has been the third largest of the "Big 3" U.S. automakers, but in January 2007, DaimlerChrysler, excluding its luxury Mercedes and Maybach lines, also outsold traditionally second place Ford, though behind General Motors and Toyota.
 
In the middle of the past decade, the merger began to take a turn for the worse. Due to Daimler's reluctance to allow Chrysler to continue development and use quality materials[dubious – discuss], Chrysler vehicles suffered lower fit and finish quality as well as sub-standard parts being supplied and used in spite of concerns[citation needed]. Although the resulting vehicles produced were still adequate, they were generally not on par with the competition.

Messages Page 3111 of 3201

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