Ask the Car People.SM


GM News, New Models and Market Share - READ ONLY

32000 messages,  Last post on Feb 14, 2013 at 7:24 PM

You are in the Automotive News & Views-Archives Forum.

What is this discussion about? Automotive News

Messages Page 3080 of 3201

#30786 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [uplanderguy] by xrunner2

Jan 17, 2013 (8:19 am)

Replying to: uplanderguy (Jan 17, 2013 7:27 am)
Nothing in history showing a connection between Corvair and the original 1965 Mustang which went on sale in Spring of 1964. Mustang is more of Ford's idea for the creation of a brand new market segment. If anything, Mustang was Ford's affordable answer to higher priced "real" sports cars from Great Britain of that era. Such as Jaguar XKE. Two years later, GM answered with Camaro and Firebird.
 
Chrysler/Plymouth introduced the Plymouth Barracuda sporty compact based on the Valiant about the same time that the Mustang went on sale. It too was front engine, rear drive. No connection to the Corvair.

#30787 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [xrunner2] by uplanderguy

Jan 17, 2013 (8:22 am)

Replying to: xrunner2 (Jan 17, 2013 8:19 am)
Nothing in history showing a connection between Corvair and the original 1965 Mustang which went on sale in Spring of 1964
 
That may be the most ridiculous statement I've read on this forum...and there have been plenty...maybe only outdone by the Mustang being influenced by the Jaguar XK-E. Note to xrunner: The Mustang was a Falcon underneath.
 
I'm done with this particular discussion. It's getting deep in here.

#30788 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [xrunner2] by andre1969

Jan 17, 2013 (8:34 am)

Replying to: xrunner2 (Jan 17, 2013 8:19 am)
Well, if you want to get picky, the first "sporty" compact was probably the 1957 Rambler Rebel...a compact car with a 327-4bbl V-8 and dual exhaust. But, it was more sporty in the tough, brawny musclecar sense, than in the more European-style, "less-is-more" tossable type of sportiness. And by 1958 with the onset of recession, all of a sudden "performance" was becoming a dirty word. So the Rebel was about seven years too early.
 
The Corvair Monza did not directly spawn any imitators, in the sense that the Mustang, Barracuda, et al were all conventional front engine, RWD, cars. However, it definitely established a niche for itself as a sporty compact and made Ford and Chrysler sit up and take notice.
 
Now, the creative geniuses at Ford might not have said "hey, that Covair's a hot little item, let's copy it, but make it more conventional, and call it "Mustang!" But, Ford no doubt noticed that, as the Corvair showed, there was definitely a demand for compacts that were fun and sporty, yet affordable. And not just plain-jane and cheap.
 
So, we may be splitting hairs here, but basically the Corvair accidentally uncovered a market for smaller, sporty compacts, and then everyone else jumped on it, but massaged and evolved their own designs.

#30789 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [xrunner2] by fintail

Jan 17, 2013 (10:15 am)

Replying to: xrunner2 (Jan 17, 2013 8:19 am)
I don't know if I can really buy a direct Corvair -> Mustang link either. I see the Corvair as much more similar to European cars - more modern and bleeding edge. The Mustang was of course just a rebodied Falcon, which wasn't exactly high technology. The Monza coupe might have shown there was a market for small sporty American cars, but I don't know if the same people bought both it and the Mustang.

#30790 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [xrunner2] by keystonecarfan

Jan 17, 2013 (10:57 am)

Replying to: xrunner2 (Jan 17, 2013 8:19 am)
That's simply not true.
 
The "Fairlane Group" was a team of ten executives assembled by Lee Iacocca to explore how Ford could tap the youth market, which was projected to grow dramatically in the 1960s.
 
When the radical-for-Detroit Corvair sedan appeared in the fall of 1959, it was whipped in sales by the utterly conventional Ford Falcon. GM was seriously disappointed in the Corvair's initial sales performance.
 
The Corvair Monza show car appeared in the spring of 1960, and was approved for production for the remainder of the 1960 model year. The first Monza was a specially trimmed Corvair coupe with bucket seats. It was a big hit, and for the 1961 model year, the Monza was the most popular Corvair model.
 
This was a huge surprise to Detroit in general, and GM in particular. The top-of-the-line Corvair, with bucket seats, nice interior trim and upgraded exterior trim, was the most popular model. GM had planned the Corvair as a small, economy model, as its mantra was that "small cars were cheap cars." People who bought small cars were not thought to be interested in style or looks, and given the success of late 1950s Ramblers, one could hardly blame GM for making that conclusion.
 
The Monza had (temporarily, as it turned out), saved the Corvair. As Hal Sperlich (who was then at Ford) later said, GM turned a failure into a success with the Monza.
 
Ford scrambled to keep up with the 1961 Falcon Futura, a specially trimmed, bucket-seat version of the Falcon two-door sedan. The 1963 1/2 Falcon Sprint convertible and hardtop were additional responses to the Monza.
 
The original Monza showed the Fairlane Group that there was a large market for a small, sporty, but not very expensive, car. Lackluster sales of the specially trimmed Falcons, however, showed that Ford needed to offer more than a Falcon with bucket seats and a different roofline. As Sperlich later said, putting a different roofline and bucket seats on the prosaic Falcon was like "putting falsies on grandma."
 
In the early 1960s, the popularly priced European imports that still sold reasonably well (import sales had essentially collapsed when the Big Three compacts debuted in 1960) were the VW and various British two-seat sports cars. The VW as an economy car, while Ford knew that the market for something on the order of a MG was too limited by its standards.
 
Reaction to its Mustang I showcar, which was a radical, two-seat sports car, confirmed this. Iacocca noted that the real buffs loved it, but they were not a large part of the market at that time (or today, for that matter). The Monza showed Ford which direction to take. The failure of the special-edition Falcons showed that Ford needed something more than a tarted-up Falcon.
 
There's a very good chance that, without the success of the first Monza, the Fairlane Group would not have been able to push through the original Mustang.
 
Read Mustang Genesis by Robert Fria and The Reckoning by David Halberstam to obtain a complete account of the Monza's influence on Ford's actions during this time period. The first Monza was a hugely influential car in early 1960s Detroit.

#30791 of 32000 GM #1 and #2 at NAIAS per Autoblog by ateixeira

Jan 17, 2013 (11:00 am)

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/16/editors-choice-top-five-detroit-auto-show-deb- uts/
 
Corvette #1, ELR #2.
 
Not bad.

#30792 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [fintail] by tlong

Jan 17, 2013 (11:07 am)

Replying to: fintail (Jan 17, 2013 10:15 am)
I don't know if I can really buy a direct Corvair -> Mustang link either. I see the Corvair as much more similar to European cars - more modern and bleeding edge. The Mustang was of course just a rebodied Falcon, which wasn't exactly high technology. The Monza coupe might have shown there was a market for small sporty American cars, but I don't know if the same people bought both it and the Mustang.
 
Agreed. The Corvair was more like GM's VW Beetle or Karmann Ghia. The Mustang doesn't really have much resemblance other than being "sporty".

#30793 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [tlong] by keystonecarfan

Jan 17, 2013 (11:24 am)

Replying to: tlong (Jan 17, 2013 11:07 am)
Ford wasn't copying the Corvair's drivetrain layout - it was copying the concept of a stylish compact coupe with bucket seats, console, and up-level exterior and interior trim. That was a radical concept for Detroit at that time.
 
The general consensus in Detroit, prior to the debut of the Monza, was that small cars were primarily purchased by people too poor/cheap/dumb to buy a "real" (meaning, full-size) car.
 
If you wanted style, you were supposed to buy an Impala or Galaxie hardtop coupe with all of the trimmings.

#30794 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [keystonecarfan] by bpizzuti

Jan 17, 2013 (11:35 am)

Replying to: keystonecarfan (Jan 17, 2013 11:24 am)
if you're going to be that general then the Corvair was actually GM copying the VW Type 1 "Beetle."

#30795 of 32000 Re: Question about Corvair influence [bpizzuti] by uplanderguy

Jan 17, 2013 (11:45 am)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 17, 2013 11:35 am)
The Corvair part of the equation is the Monza, not just the Corvair.
 
Really, articles have been written about the Monza concept (deluxe trim, bucket seats in a compact car) influencing the rest of Detroit, for decades. I mean, such articles have been around for decades.

Messages Page 3080 of 3201

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement