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Black Box Data Recording

59 messages,  Last post on Mar 25, 2013 at 8:00 AM

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Messages Page 3 of 7

#15 of 59 One of the problems by srs_49

Mar 03, 2010 (6:05 pm)

with EDRs is that they just sort of snuck up on us. I think they are actually part of the air bag deployment system. In order to deploy the airbag correctly across a range of crash scenarios, the engineers decided they needed deceleration info, brake, throttle position, etc (not sure why). Supposedly, this info was to be used by manufacturers to improve their vehicles' safety devices.
 
The use of EDR stored information to recreate an accident scenario was not the original intent. That an EDR's stored data could be used for such a purposes came out gradually, over the course of several years. It was never debated in such terms. Now we're stuck with it.
 
Am I a fan of EDRs? NO! (For that matter, I'm not fan of airbags either. But, that's a topic for another thread). Just another attempt at Big Brother to poke his nose into your business. And no, I don't believe the song and dance about "if you've done nothing wrong, what do you have to worry about". The powers that be have never been able to keep their hands out of the cookie jar, once they've gotten into the kitchen.

#16 of 59 Re: One of the problems [srs_49] by ponderpoint

Mar 04, 2010 (8:26 am)

Replying to: srs_49 (Mar 03, 2010 6:05 pm)
"Just another attempt at Big Brother to poke his nose into your business."
 
So, they should rip out the flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders in transport category aircraft? Isn't that big brother?
 
See how ridiculous that sounds? I already see the argument; but it's MY car, it's my PERSONAL car owned by me - nobody can snoop around! What happens if YOUR car slams into a city bus? Or the city bus slams into you. You and your lawyer are delighted to find out that the bus now has video data recording and vehicle data recording that shows the bus driver was texting while driving - open and shut case. YOU were the one texting while driving and slammed into the bus, how is that different?
 
Well, unfortunately you drive your vehicle on a PUBLIC thoroughfare and to me, that means opened up to public scrutiny and record for safety reasons just like a large jet operating on an arrival route into or the light rail around Baltimore MD.
 
We all have this extremely incorrect stance that once we shut the door of our car - the massive infrastructure around it is just..... incidental to our needs and our actions or a mechanical failure of our vehicle is not open to scrutiny.
 
After some idiot with blatant road rage activity hits your car and then takes off only to be apprehended hours later because an onboard camera caught the whole mess.... Was that big brother? Ask your attorney what he thinks!!!!!

#17 of 59 Re: One of the problems [ponderpoint] by srs_49

Mar 04, 2010 (9:52 am)

Replying to: ponderpoint (Mar 04, 2010 8:26 am)
That's a rather Orwellian viewpoint you got there.
 
So, they should rip out the flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders in transport category aircraft? Isn't that big brother?
 
Well, passenger airlines are public transportation, not private (like my car). And I believe that information/evidence gleaned from an airplane's black (really orange) cannot be used in litigation against the airline. It is used to establish root-cause of an incident with the sole purpose of making an improvement so that the same incident will not occur again. It is not meant to be a tool used by a bunch of accident chasing lawyers.
 
And, just for the record, I don't care if an airline has a black box in it or not. It doesn't make the flight I might be on any safer. It might make a future flight safer, but not mine.
 
YOU were the one texting while driving and slammed into the bus, how is that different?
 
I don't use a cell phone at all, much less text. So that analogy doesn't apply in my case. Maybe you should just put EDR's in the cars of cell phone users?
 
Well, unfortunately you drive your vehicle on a PUBLIC thoroughfare and to me, that means opened up to public scrutiny and record for safety reasons just like a large jet operating on an arrival route into or the light rail around Baltimore MD.
 
Sorry, not the same thing as an airline or light rail.
 
After some idiot with blatant road rage activity hits your car and then takes off only to be apprehended hours later because an onboard camera caught the whole mess.... Was that big brother?
 
Yep. Get rid of the friggin' cameras - I'll take my chances.
 
By your line of reasoning, you would be OK with a Big Brother mirror and camera in your bedroom just to make sure you don't enagage in any unhealthy activities

#18 of 59 Re: One of the problems [srs_49] by ponderpoint

Mar 04, 2010 (12:56 pm)

Replying to: srs_49 (Mar 04, 2010 9:52 am)
"That's a rather Orwellian viewpoint you got there."
 
Yep. I think he's a great writer.
 
So.... You're car is private but it requires registration and in some states inspection and emissions. It also has two big signs on it that readily identify you (plates) and decals (usually in a window) saying you are complying with.... Big Brother?
 
I think your "private" car is a lot more public than you think..... Taken a look at platewire.com lately?
 
Oh and by the way, my bedroom, to my knowledge has never had to interact with other bedrooms on public property.

#19 of 59 Re: One of the problems [ponderpoint] by srs_49

Mar 04, 2010 (2:05 pm)

Replying to: ponderpoint (Mar 04, 2010 12:56 pm)
So.... You're car is private but it requires registration and in some states inspection and emissions. It also has two big signs on it that readily identify you (plates) and decals (usually in a window) saying you are complying with.... Big Brother?
 
Nope, don't like that either. I could easily live and drive without plates and registration. Best as I can tell, the only thing they do is keep a bunch of people at the MVA employed.
 
Oh and by the way, my bedroom, to my knowledge has never had to interact with other bedrooms on public property.
 
No, but in many parts of the country there were (not sure if they are still on the books or not) laws making it an offense to engage in certain acts, even in the privacy of your own bedroom. Why? Because, in some people's minds, those acts were an endangerment to society - the public. How do we know you're not discussing acts of sedition in your bedroom? Sounds to me like just the sort of reason a law abiding citizen like yourself would welcome a camera and mike in their home to verify that such dangerous acts are not taking place .

#20 of 59 Re: One of the problems [srs_49] by ponderpoint

Mar 06, 2010 (10:02 pm)

Replying to: srs_49 (Mar 04, 2010 2:05 pm)
I forgot.
 
I forgot to mention that yes, I love Orwell....... and most of Orwell's work was.... fiction.
 
To this day, no writings of Orwell have come true (except Iran and North Korea possibly) and we are WAY past 1984!
 
There is a horrific and complete failure of many individuals (outside this forum also) to realize that in basic observation that the highways and byways are.
 
NOT PRIVATE!!!
 
Why do you insist your car is private when it's right next to a city bus? Is the city bus private? Is the tanker that just overturned private?
 
But... The sheer micro-second your "private" car is hit by the city bus or a truck that ran a stop light you light up like a crybaby with attorneys that have meat-ripping fangs with indignation and outcry. Even better, the city bus had a black box recording the transgressions against YOUR vehicle.
 
As for the bedroom thing, tie your Buick to the ceiling fan while you watch flies getting their wings amputated if it turns you on.... As long as it's not criminal I really do not care, I might not understand it, but truly, I simply don't care.
 
Just don't hurt other people.

#21 of 59 Toyota by bolivar

Mar 06, 2010 (11:17 pm)

A day or so ago I read an article that says Toyota refuses to release the specifications of the hardware/software used in their 'black box'.
 
There already have been several court cases where Toyota was very unresponsive to requests to access the data in their auto after accidents. Toyota has supposedly said there is only ONE laptop in the entire USA with the software to query their black box. And they quoted one time a price of $5,000+ for a tech to bring this laptop to a car.
 
In most other cases they appear to just refuse or not respond to requests to pull the black box data. Several of these request have involved 'unintended acceleration' cases.
 
If what was printed in this article is half-way true, then Toyota's troubles are just starting. If this is what Toyota has done in the past, I think that a bunch of heavy-duty law firms are going to look for accident victims and bring enormous lawsuits aganist them.
 
Toyota has also supposed to have said these black boxes are only 'prototype' items and their data can only be used by themselves.
They have had them in most of their autos since about 2001, 9 years ago, hardly what appears to be 'prototype' hardware.
 
Toyota's rear is grass and it's going to be chewed up big time by the lawyers because of their previous positions on this black box issue.

#22 of 59 Re: Toyota [bolivar] by srs_49

Mar 07, 2010 (5:35 am)

Replying to: bolivar (Mar 06, 2010 11:17 pm)
Toyota's rear is grass and it's going to be chewed up big time by the lawyers because of their previous positions on this black box issue.
 
And that's the problem. The data in the EDR will be used more to enrich some ambulance chasing lawyers than it will to make safer vehicles. This is not the case with the flight data recorders that are used on airlines.
 
I applaud Toyota for not making its EDR data more readily available. I wish the other auto makers had taken the same approach.
 
And besides, if the government really, REALLY wanted that data, they could always turn a Toyota EDR over to a certain 3 letter acronym federal agency in the Ft. Meade area and have the box cracked in short time.

#23 of 59 Re: Toyota [srs_49] by gagrice

Mar 07, 2010 (6:47 pm)

Replying to: srs_49 (Mar 07, 2010 5:35 am)
Some states have passed laws regarding EDR data. I believe the gist of the law is the data in the EDR belongs to whomever owns the vehicle. CA was first with this:
 
California Black Box Law
In September, California became the first state to adopt a law that addressed the issue of event data recorders (or black boxes) in automobiles. When a crash occurs, these black boxes record certain factors seconds before the accident. The actual information recorded varies widely depending on the type of recorder. It could be something as simple as whether the air bag deployed, or as complicated as what speed your vehicle was traveling at, as well as if you were braking at the time of the accident.
 
One thing this law (which goes into effect July 1, 2004) has accomplished is that it brought attention to this issue. Attention that has been sorely lacking. The majority of drivers don't even know these devices exist, let alone the potential that their car's information could be used against them.
 
Most car owner's manuals only have a sentence or two that tells you that your vehicle has a black box. And, even then, it is usually in the section that describes your air bag and implies that the recorder only records that your air bag deployed. It doesn't go into detail on how many seconds before a crash are recorded or what other information may be included. This new California law will now require carmakers to provide more information concerning these devices.
 
While this new legislation does require the disclosure of these devices, the privacy protections outlined in this law are a joke.
 
This law states that no one can access the data without the owner's permission or a court order. If you look closely at this, you can see this really doesn't restrict anything. If you have been in an accident, it would be very easy for the court to order this information to be collected. No protection there.
 
A driver could also be pressured into giving permission for the information to be taken. (One scenario could be your insurance company threatening you with higher premiums if you don't share your car's information.) No protection there either.
 
While this brings much needed attention to the issue of black boxes, this isn't even close to being the "privacy act" that the politicians are touting it to be.

#24 of 59 Re: Toyota [srs_49] by steve_ HOST

Mar 07, 2010 (6:49 pm)

Replying to: srs_49 (Mar 07, 2010 5:35 am)
This is not the case with the flight data recorders that are used on airlines.
 
Why wouldn't a lawyer be able to access the flight data recorder? At worse it would take a court order. A Thousand Pictures (PCM Online)

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