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Sedans Saturn Aura Saturn Aura vs. Honda Accord
326 messages, Last post on Dec 19, 2007 at 5:48 AM
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Replying to: elroy5 (Nov 26, 2007 2:21 pm) Sounds like your describing an Azera or Avalon to me. I think the Accord completes with these guys now.
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Replying to: phaetondriver (Nov 26, 2007 2:00 pm) The new VCM (arrived with 2008 Accord and also implemented in 2008 Odyssey) runs in three modes. V6 from stops, moderate to major hill climbing and any time the car is accelerated. I-3 under low throttle and low load/speed conditions still applies. But the older VCM design (VCM) when the engine would switch from I-3 directly to V6 was expanded to include V4 mode. Now, for little more power requirements than I-3 could previously handle, there is the V4. Apparently, it is good for highway cruising and minor hill climbing. The 3.0-liter V6 engine would have been like a 1.5-liter engine in I-3 mode and like a 2.0-liter engine in V4 mode, to propel a 3600 lb family sedan (and the technology was also to be used on 4600 lb+ minivan and SUV). So, it made sense to go 3.5. Now, the I-3 is more like a 1.7, the V4 like a 2.2. The extra power/size while not operating in V6 mode now allows for major increase in situations where the drive train wouldn’t have to rely on all six cylinders. The result is better fuel economy. As gas prices creep up, poorer fuel economy is going to be noticed by more folks. Honda’s first effort was to get the V6 closer to four cylinder fuel economy. In fact, under the old EPA rating, Accord V6 would be rated 22/32 mpg and that compares well with my 1998 Accord I-4 which was a class leader at the time with 23/30 mpg. Having played that card, Honda had room to compete in power game too. They went for more power, which apparently helps make a splash in advertisements, even if V6 models account for 15-20% sales at best. Not a shabby number though, as that percentage would still amount to almost 7K units/month and a lot of mainstream cars don’t sell as well. Honda expects half of the Accord sales with EX/EX-L (I-4) trims. GM’s expectation with Malibu is similar, they expect most of the sales with I-4, and it comes as no surprise that Aura will get I-4 too. I didn’t think Honda needed to compete in power, but then I would have complained if they didn’t focus on fuel economy. Instead, they improved both. |
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Replying to: chrono (Nov 26, 2007 2:35 pm) The character of the car is still the same, a desirable balance between ride and comfort. It doesn't isolate folks as much as Azera/Avalon do, and it isn't as over the top as a Mazda6. And as C&D puts it (in the latest 10-Best edition)... "the Accord's steering cuts with a sharpness that is unique among family sedans and carves a path so accurately that you can position the car exactly where you want it. The Accord's brakes and shifter are similarly precise and satisfying. For those with a more sporting bent, the Accord also comes as a two door with unique (and very attractive) sheetmetal and a V-6 combined with a six speed manual. All told, it adds up to one more in a terrific line of cars that have captured a record 22 10Best trophies since we started awarding them in 1983" Thats the Accord I have known for ten years. |
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Replying to: robertsmx (Nov 26, 2007 2:36 pm) Over all, I guess Honda decided it had to build a bigger more powerful car to compete in the class that they were the leaders in.
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Replying to: phaetondriver (Nov 26, 2007 3:31 pm) And for almost twenty five years, Honda has used (initially REV in motorcycles and later VTEC in cars and more recently Hyper-VTEC in motorcycles) to selectively close/open valves. It is about as simple implementation as it can get. It comes with some compromises but that relates to performance. In case you're wondering where else Honda does this selective valve open/close... you could go back to even 1998 Accord (both, I-4 and V6). At low engine speeds, instead of using all 4-valves/cylinder, Honda will use VTEC to keep half of them shut. With VCM, they keep all of them shut on select cylinders.
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Replying to: robertsmx (Nov 26, 2007 4:13 pm) I thought that the V-TEC stuff was all about intake manifold runners. One long and one short, using the appropriate runner for low end torque (long) or the other for high RPM horse power (short). I know exactly how the SOHC and DOHC systems opens and closes intake and exhaust valves. It is a simple mechanical system. But you need to keep a valve open during the compression stroke to expel the compressed air reducing the resistance of the stroke if your not going to burn any fuel in the power stroke. This is what GM failed to do so every cylinder that was "shut off was always fighting the engine on every compression stroke. Technology from diesel engines with compression release needs to be incorporated into the engines running one of these gas saving techniques. Anyone have a link to the engineering design drawing for the V-TEC engines? I'd love to see how they accomplish the compression release problem.
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Replying to: robertsmx (Nov 26, 2007 2:36 pm) Honestly, people looking for a V6 aren't looking for fuel economy. Look at what happened to the Accord Hybrid. If you have a lead foot, the V6 Accord isn't going to get anywhere near 30 mpg .. closer to 20. And honestly if fuel economy was a priority I'd buy a Prius like most folk. I don't trust VCM. Chrysler and GM have implemented their versions but same issue. If you drive hard, you burn more gas. I may eat my words though if gas hits 5 dollars a gallon. May need to trade in for a Prius.
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Replying to: chrono (Nov 26, 2007 8:01 pm) I don't think you will have to wait that long for it. 
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Replying to: phaetondriver (Nov 26, 2007 7:11 pm) VTEC was a follow up development of REV that Honda used in mid-80s motorcycles. In REV, two of four valves (per cylinder) would be kept shut at low rpm (one-intake, one-exhaust). REV has now evolved into Hyper-VTEC (Honda Interceptor). You can read quite a bit about it here, a nice glimpse from about 25 years back in history to pretty much the present. VTEC did more, but the REV technology became a part of it. Here is an excerpt from Honda PR (1998-2002 Accord 2.3/3.0 engines): V-6 AND 4-CYLINDER VTEC Accord LX and EX engines (both 4-cylinder and V-6 models) utilize VTEC (VTEC stands for Honda Variable valve Timing and valve Lift Electronic Control system). The VTEC system helps these engines achieve their low emissions and broad torque curves. LOW-SPEED OPERATION During low-rpm operation, only one intake valve opens, allowing air and fuel into the combustion chamber. The other intake valve has only a slight amount of lift and its timing is staggered. As a result, the air-fuel charge drawn through the open intake valve undergoes a swirl effect. The swirl creates a stratified charge with a rich mixture near the spark plug (for good light-off), and a progressively leaner mixture toward its periphery. This stratified charge, combined with improved EGR control, results in lower emissions (especially during the critical warm-up period) and better fuel economy. Low-friction, roller-bearing rocker arms are used to help reduce friction and improve engine efficiency HIGH-SPEED OPERATION Between 2300 and 3900 rpm (depending on manifold pressure) in the 4-cylinder engine, and at 3500 rpm in the V-6, the intake valve timing switches to a high-performance mode. The two intake-valve rocker arms are locked to a third rocker arm and cam follower located between them, via an electronically con-trolled, hydraulically actuated locking pin. Until now, this third rocker arm has been independently following the contour of a high-lift, long-duration camlobe. The two intake rocker arms are now actuated by this third rocker arm and a cam timing that more closely matches the intake-tract timing required for optimum torque at high engine speeds. The result is a broader, flatter torque curve, low emissions and smoother power delivery throughout the engine's entire speed range. VCM does something similar to REV. But instead of shutting down half of the valves on all cylinders, it shuts down all valves on selected cylinders. Note that, while doing so, the idle cylinders still have pistons moving and spark plugs going off. The only thing missing is intake/burning/exhaust of air/fuel mixture. Keeping the cylinders fired up also keeps them warm (and ready) to provide power instantaneously when driver accelerates as there is no lag (big problem with GM’s design that you speak about).
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Replying to: chrono (Nov 26, 2007 8:01 pm) My neighbor just came down from Canada where he says gas is over $5.00 Canadian for an Imperial gallon. I am not familiar with the Imperial gallon, but I think it is close to a US gallon. Point is, with the Canadian dollar now almost exactly the same as a US dollar, they are already paying the price we are worried about.
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