Last post on Mar 07, 2013 at 11:38 AM
You are in the Subaru Legacy & Outback
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Subaru Legacy, Subaru Outback, Wagon
#380 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [winter2]
Sep 12, 2012 (7:44 pm)
A few comments Ė coming in late to the discussion.
1) MAF cleaning (or the ability to do so) varies by manufacture and design. I cannot say this as fact, but it seems Iím seeing that older systems that used IAC were more tolerant of chemistry. Newer systems with electronic throttles and no separate IAC (like my Toyota) have dire warnings in TSBís and the service manual to NEVER spray the MAF but to clean the throttle plate and surrounding sealing surfaces very carefully. I guess Iíd have to call these systems more high strung (?) as they rely on the plate position and MAF feedback to very carefully meter and control idle stability.
2) Decarbonizing? Lots of discussions all over the web about SeaFoam and similar products used in this way. Half in the tank, half sucked in thru a vacuum hose. The real issue on many modern designs is to find a vacuum hose that enters early enough that the cleaner gets evenly distributed. There are also concerns about carbon chunks scoring cylinder walls, getting caught in valve sealing surfaces, clogging cat inlets, etc. My advice - only if you are absolutely sure you need it. Add it to fuel in a good concentration, but skip the forced feeding.
3) Chemistry lesson: Ethanol is added to fuel to provide additional oxygen in a homogeneously mixed (liquid bearing) form. It is known as an oxygenate, because when ethanol (C2H5-OH) decomposes it releases the hydroxyl along with ethane (a gaseous fuel). The normal stoichiometric fuel/air mix provides enough air to burn the ethane (a very clean burning fuel), so the extra oxygen (and presumably hydrogen) help with converting unburned fuel into water (H2O) and carbon dioxide (C02). Without the extra oxygen, you tend to get more carbon monoxide (CO) out the tail pipe. In NY we pretty much universally use 10% blend. The downside is the reduced energy content of blended fuels, so mileage suffers overall. Other seasonal tricks (changes in light volatiles content) may also impact some engines drivability.
Ethanol is hygroscopic (collects and binds with water), but in cold climates we used to add either methanol or ethanol to fuels for exactly that purpose! Itís called DRYGAS, and it was a great way to prevent fuel system corrosion and gas line freeze. Given that fuels contain a lot more of it than we added in the old days, I guess there could be debate about how much more water this might attract. On the other hand, the closed fuel systems on todayís cars donít allow nearly as much airborne water vapor into the fuel system, so itís probably a wash.
4) On the subject of Honda CRV Ė have they fixed the post oil change fire issue? I guess you donít have to worry about an aging CRV as much if it simply burns up in your driveway!!! OK, slight exaggeration, but it was a known problem for a while! Tranny longevity has also been a knock. Lastly, there was a strong argument that the (Haldex??) AWD system was slow to kick in, making the CRV only an occasional AWD verses Subaruís renowned reputation for outstanding AWD systems. Assess your need for a good AWD system, then decide. To be fair, my sister loves her '08 CRV, as does my neighbor ('04, IIRC).
Subaru is incredibly popular in the NorthEast. Canít swing a dead cat without hitting one or two in my parking lot at work. Today I walked out and thought there must have been a SURARU ONLY PARKING sign installed, as I was pretty much surrounded.
5) Head GasketsÖ. Yes, as my 2002 Outback is less than 200 miles away from rolling 100k, I could tell you more than you want to know about the root cause of the scrubbing, the myriad attempted engineering fixes over the years, etc. Suffice to say that the F series engines (mine was an E) donít route cooling water thru the head gasket, but use hoses to connect the head to the block. That change, plus additional ribbing should solve this issue. For long term ownership, wait for a 2013 Outback. Other than the head gaskets, it has been a pretty amazing ownership experience. I still enjoy driving the wagon daily.
Did I cover the last two weeks adequately?
#381 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [fibber2]
Sep 13, 2012 (12:00 pm)
Steve, as always, you can deliver one impressive post.
#382 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [fibber2]
Sep 19, 2012 (9:26 am)
Can you please do that for every other thread?
#383 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [ateixeira]
Sep 19, 2012 (10:02 am)
Subaru's are the AWD of choice in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. (Lake Tahoe and area. When one goes to any of the communities around the Lake, one would think only Subaru's existed! Their traction on ice and in snow is legendary...Domestics and and most Japanese AWD's cannot out-do the Subaru. I live in the Eastern Foothills of the Sierra. We have a quarter mile of very steep road to get up to the street I live on. My neighbor has a Honda. He parks it at the bottom of the hill when it is snowing or when the road is covered with ice. I drive right up it, no problems.
I will say this..my 2000 Forester was much better on ice and snow than my 2011 Outback...had better side wind stability as well. But..the 'cush' of the Outback outweighs the minor differences between my Forester and the new Outback.
I just hope I can get the mileage up on the Outback..only averaging 25 mpg..and that is 90% highway driving on cruise control. The local dealers blow me off, saying that's normal. Heh...I may have my company attorney write a letter to Subaru, asking them to correct the mileage issue or give me a new car. THAT might get Subaru's attention as there is now court precedent on the mileage claims on new cars.
#384 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [mcharlie]
Sep 20, 2012 (11:53 am)
The fuel mileage claims are not something that the manufacturerís advertising departments come up with on a whim. Itís a direct quotation from the EPA test results.
Now one can certainly argue that the EPA test methodology is flawed, or that the car makers somehow set up engine/transmission calibration to take maximum advantage of the test routine, but those are the numbers that they are legally obliged to quote. Unless Subaru deviated from the script, they have the EPA to fall back on with any legal challenge to their claims. You'd have to prove that your particular vehicle was somehow different from the vehicle Subaru submitted for testing, or that your vehicle was somehow mechanically deficient.
The test method is available. Why not try duplicating it and see what you come up with?
#385 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [fibber2]
Sep 20, 2012 (12:02 pm)
I understand your reply, but there is now court precedent that completely blows the EPA and car manufacturer mileage claims out of court. Essentially, the court ruling said that the car manufacturers are obligated to produce mileage figures that are real road driving figures, not test figures as EPA produces.
#386 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [mcharlie]
Sep 20, 2012 (6:50 pm)
Interesting. Can you site a reference? Not challenging you - I'd really like to read this decision as it certainly has industry-wide impact. So they are required by law to post the window sticker with the EPA-sanctioned results, but then have to meet or beat the numbers in some kind of real-world driving (and this real world drive cycle is defined by who???) in order to use the numbers in advertising???
You sound like enough of a car guy to realize that there are a hundred test variables that impact mileage results. Who now gets to decide where and how the drive should be done if there are no standardized tests? And this is supposed to somehow make things better? Crazy....
You and I both know there are places that local courts just shouldn't meddle. I see a serious appeal in the cards.
Interesting sidebar story:
I was talking to someone I'd seen around town before at the gas station near home. She is on her 5th OBW in 13 years or so. Her husband has this thing about trading in her car at 40k miles. She was in her 2012, and I think she said it now had like 15k miles on it, so it was broken in. She complained that the '12 got several mpg less than her nearly identical 2010. Sample differences? Who knows....
#388 of 406 Re: Chemical Cleaning of a Subaru Engine [mcharlie]
Sep 21, 2012 (8:05 am)
Gotta love it:
which would see plaintiffs get a $100 to $200 and $1,000 discount on a new Honda and trial attorneys get $8.5 million
#389 of 406 Re: Check Engine light and cruise control blinking/Whining noise when accel [csmilich]
Nov 15, 2012 (9:01 am)
I started having problems with my 2002 Subaru Outback. First, check engine light came on which was the catalayic convertor. Then, the overheating started which blew a head gasket. Got a head gasket job. Then, the radiator blew, had to get another hg job. While, getting the second hg job they replaced the timing belt kit. Now my car makes weird noises, whines. Mechanic said the power steering fluid leaks which is some of the whinning. Now he told me I need the differential replaced. But never offered to do any of the work. Now, my car whines and when I turn the steering wheel the wheel squeals but there is something wrong with the front tires. Now he says motor is blown we put 20/50 oil in it and is running okay with no knocking from motor but still whines and turns funny or front tires feels funny when you turn the car. What to do?