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Vans & Minivans Honda Odyssey Article Comments - 2008 Dodge Grand Caravan vs. 2007 Honda Odyssey Touring
184 messages, Last post on Jan 16, 2009 at 4:58 PM
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Replying to: 6sptl (Sep 05, 2007 6:12 am) Maybe this will explain it. But before I do, let me say it's far from being fluff.There are many new features on the 2008 that make it safer, quieter, rides better and makes it a great all around minivan. Granted it doesn't have all the features the Honda has in their engine. But with all those features, the Honda was only 1.7 seconds faster in the quarter mile and is no more reliable than the old 3.8. Plus it only get's about two MPG more by cutting out half the cylinders, than the Chrysler with a four speed, firing on six all the time. Not a great improvement over the Chrysler for what Honda had to spend developing that engine. So Chrysler kept two old engines and came out with a new one more powerful than the Honda. Put that extra money in safety items and all the things you guys said you wanted on your vans, as to why you bought a Honda or Toyota. Then they went one extra and put on many things kids and grownups like that Honda and Toyota didn't even offer. They made a minivan for every want a person could have in buying a minivan, except making it hold eight passengers. Something is there for everyone. Now I'll explain why Chrysler has a hard time putting up a lot of expensive new features. "It's been hard for Chrysler and American automotive manufactures to compete with the advantages the foreign makers have in profit. They can't put as much in R/D into their vehicles. Foreign makers here are not paying the health care for retirees. Have thousands fewer retirees to pay for. Not paying as much in health care, because their employees are younger. Got many of their new plants at big tax discounts to bring them into these states. Pay lower wages." Japanese widen profit gap over U.S. automakers Associated Press August 8, 2007 Article tools E-mail Share Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Furl Google Newsvine Reddit Spurl Yahoo Print Single page view Reprints Reader feedback Text size: TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - Japanese automakers widened their profit-making gap over the Big Three domestic automakers last year by 31 percent, according to a study released Tuesday. The profit gap, which already was significant in 2005 at $2,899 per vehicle sold in North America, widened by $915, to $3,814, according to a study of industry costs and profits by Laurie Harbour-Felax, managing director of Stout Risius Ross, a Chicago-based financial and operational advisory firm. The study, made public at an automotive industry conference, found that while General Motors Corp. had improved its efficiency and cut production costs, the nation's largest automaker and its Detroit counterparts, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, still have a long way to go to match the profits of Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. GM cut its loss per vehicle in North America to $146 in 2006 from $1,271 in 2005, largely because of cost cuts that included the departure of more than 34,000 hourly workers to buyout and early retirement offers. It also is saving money on efforts to design cars and trucks globally, by increasing the number of parts common to all of its vehicles and by purchasing parts on a global basis, Harbour-Felax said. "GM has done the most from this as you look at their whole product lineup," she said. Still, GM made $2,123 less per vehicle than Toyota in 2006, according to the report. Toyota, the most profitable of all automakers on a per-vehicle basis, increased its profit per vehicle from $1,175 in 2005 to $1,977 in 2006, the report said. The numbers for individual manufacturers are at times lower than the overall gap because they do not include special write-offs, Harbour-Felax said. Ford, while it has made progress on cost cuts, common parts and globalization, still had a $3,939 profit gap in 2006 when compared with Toyota, Harbour-Felax said. Chrysler's profit gap with Toyota averaged $3,088 per vehicle for 2006 mainly because it was "force feeding" the market by selling vehicles with heavy incentives, she said. The labor cost difference between the Big Three and the Japanese automakers amounts to $1,200 to $1,500 per vehicle, Harbour-Felax said. Although the domestic automakers likely are to seek parity with the Japanese in ongoing contract talks with the United Auto Workers, that won't solve all of their problems because labor costs make up only about 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle, she said. The average price of a vehicle in the U.S. last year was $28,451, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association.
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Replying to: marine2 (Sep 05, 2007 2:50 pm) How simpler can a corporate philosophy be other than: "To create a company that society wants to exist"? That simple statement is a revolution in corporate thought, not a company to make money... but rather a company that due to its excellence and environmental concern and stewardness is an undeniable asset to the progress of society.....now that is some thinking!!!!! 
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Replying to: 6sptl (Sep 05, 2007 7:33 pm) Daimler Chrysler was happy to take in the profits Chrysler was making and using much of it at home in Germany. Japanese automakers were smart enough to see that fuel prices would one day be a drag on these big gas hogs and went to work developing good fuel efficient cars. Buy the time the Americans woke up and saw market share crumble, it was to late to do much about it. Union contracts had locked them into billions of dollars of payouts in wages, retirement medical care and pensions. Money paid out with no benefit coming back to them. Meanwhile the Japanese were free of most of these expenses. They were getting huge tax breaks from states willing to collect little or no taxes for years, just to get factories built in their state. The Japanese companies hired new younger workers at below union wages and didn't have the big expenses of pension and retirement medical care to pay out. Because they had a younger work force, they even got a break on the other medical coverage. Chrysler was even at a bigger disadvantage. Unlike Ford and GM, Chrysler was not a world manufacture. They didn't make small cars overseas that they could bring over here and sell. Their new parent also was not into small cars to help bail them out. If they lost money in the American market, they couldn't count on sales to other world markets to help them out like GM and Ford could. But let's put the myth aside that Japanese cars are so much superior and have little problems. "So much for Toyota's vaunted reputation for quality. On July 18, the Japanese auto giant announced a recall of 418,570 vehicles worldwide for faulty engine parts. This follows an even larger global recall of nearly one million cars and trucks at the end of May for faulty parts that could cause drivers to lose control of the steering wheel. The current recall affects about 150,000 cars sold outside of Japan, mainly in the U.S. and Canada, though no accidents have been reported due to the faulty engine component that could lead to oil leakage. In the U.S. more than 34,000 cars were recalled, including 26,200 Echo and 8,500 Prius models. While Toyota (TM) is no stranger to recalls—in May 2005 it recalled more than 750,000 pickup trucks and every single 2006 Toyota model line from the Avalon to the Tundra has experienced some form of recall—this latest round may finally dent its Teflon image if steps aren't taken to improve quality." http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jul2006/bw20060717_855947.htm While Chrysler has also had it's share of recalls, it's quality has been much higher than it's previous parent, Mercedies. "It’s largely because the general press in this country has fallen into a depressing but easy pattern of “foreign good, U.S.-produced bad.” They perpetuate conventional wisdom and don't report the latest state. I remember the time of the Daimler takeover of Chrysler in '98. The press essentially concluded, almost unanimously, “One good thing is that Mercedes will finally bring quality to Chrysler.” Hello! If they had bothered to check the data, they would have found that Chrysler quality was already significantly better than Mercedes, and it presumably still is today." http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/02/
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Replying to: marine2 (Sep 05, 2007 11:55 pm)
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Replying to: 6sptl (Sep 06, 2007 6:13 am) I will have this 2005 for three years in Dec. It has more electrical stuff on it than any vehicle I have ever owned.That scared me so much I took out an extended warranty on it. But knock on wood, so far, nothing has gone wrong with it. It had one recall on a possible pinched hose that I had looked at when I had an oil change. Don't know if it did or not. But this has been my best Chrysler product yet. I have easily seen the gradual improvement in their products. Especially lately. My Brother has a 2001 Dodge Minivan, he bought new and did nothing but put brakes on it. That's what gave me the confidence to buy my first minivan, after hearing the stories of those vans in the late 1980's with their tranny problems. |
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In the next month I will be buying one of these two vehicles, so this review was very timely. Everything about the drivability, handling, performance-great and all, but not what minivan drivers are looking for. Most are moms toting around town, and then the occasional road trip. I know that the test vehicles are provided by the manufacturers, but i think most people would be more helped by a comparison of mid-line, rather than high-line models. For instance, the Dodge, outfitted with the base SXT package with the Entertainment Group, comes in at a mere $30,155, and it has the features that matter to most people, navigation, rear video, multi-zone climate control, stain resistant fabrics, and lots of good safety features. You can't get an Odyssey with video and navigation, unless your willing to go after-market or pony up some big bucks--and your can't get them without leather (for those of us who prefer cloth). The article blew right over the MyGig feature, which to me is HUGE. There is nothing like it in ANY other minivan. HDD, Nav, backup cam, and bluetooth in one nice looking and functional package. My current Dodge lease ended on 9/1, and I actually extended it a month so I could have a chance to drive the 08 to see if it will be all that I hope it will be. Personally, I think the Swivel n Go, falls into the "neat trick" category, but is basically to clumsy and crowded to be effective. Especially considering the fact that they won't fold into the floor like the Stow n Go, a feature we have grown quite fond of in our current van. When i drove the Honda, I liked how it handled, but I expected it to be quieter in terms of road noise than it was. I was VERY unimpressed with the stereo. It flat out sucked. Music is important to my family, and there was no redeeming value to the Odyssey's sound system. Heck, even the Hyundai had it beat hands down. I would give the Honda the chips on the seats though. I thought they were quite comfortable. My kids agreed. I will finish my random stream of thoughts with my own personal conclusion. I want to wait to see the new Dodge, but in the end, since I'm leasing, I will probably be "settling for" a Honda due to the obvious, aforementioned resale values. (unless, of course, Chrysler has a great new lease special available!) oh, and honda can't touch the dodge if someone is looking for the "el cheapo" model. |
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I recently read your article on the minivan comparison. Overall while I understand Edmund's propensity for Honda products. This comparison just goes over board. So somehow, a minivan which is suppose be the ultimate in flexibility, which indisputably the new Dodge Caravan is, loses to the Honda Odyssey minivan because it's more "fun" to drive in a slalom. Seriously?!?! Even though the Caravan is heavier, but makes it to 60 quicker and comes with a six speed automatic?? (Edmund's has ALWAYS been quick to point out when Chrysler is using a sub-standard automatic transmission, now all of a sudden barely a phrase about it). Of course lets not even go with seating options, because I clearly remember the Odyssey besting the Caravan when they came out with the "magic third row seat" now all of a sudden seating option superiority is just glanced over.... in a Minivan Comparison????!?! I don't know about you, but I too have a dainty wife that looks like Jane but can bench-press a 100 pounds like Tarzan and just can't wait to hoist a Oldsmobile Aurora-type minivan seat on her back to put it in the garage for storage. Continuing, I know Edmund's loves a good interior, but looking at the two pictures of the dashboard designs there's enough gaps in the Honda design where a good portion of a deck of playing cards would fit. This is aside from it being an ergonomic nightmare (heated seat buttons at the bottom of the center stack ....what?!?). You also make mention of cheap plastic.... there's a faux-metal plastic piece running the entire length of Honda's dashboard along with complimentary gaps... give me a break. The only minivan that I could see the Caravan losing to would be the Toyota. I've been in all three and the Toyota makes a much better effort with features and a truly good interior to boot, a little pricey, but some might definitely say it's worth it. This review read more like a sports car comparison not a minivan one. Because everyone knows when you have group of kids and a wife in toe there's nothing like shooting up a twisty mountain against a G35 with juice boxes, backpacks, and cooler of jarred food flying about. Come on Edmund's!! I normally agree with Edmund's but this review misses so many of the finer points of what most minivan buyers cherish such as seating options, features (particularly ones that can keep kids occupied), room, interior noise, safety, MPG, ergonomics, to some degree horsepower, and price. Hopefully the next minivan comparison will address these points in upcoming reviews. |
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Replying to: kc177 (Sep 06, 2007 5:35 pm)
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Replying to: redundant (Sep 06, 2007 7:27 pm) The new Dodge looks like a pretty good product and they've addressed most of the shortcomings the old models had. Consumers will make the final choice when they buy. |
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Replying to: kc177 (Sep 06, 2007 5:35 pm) So somehow, a minivan which is suppose be the ultimate in flexibility, which indisputably the new Dodge Caravan is, loses to the Honda Odyssey minivan because it's more "fun" to drive in a slalom. Seriously?!?! Edmonds is not alone this respect. CR is much the same. They never met a Japanese vehicle they didn't like. But as you say, some forget what you buy a minivan for. They want seating, safety, enough power to keep you out of trouble. Enough space to store kids stuff. Big enough to haul things home from Home Depot. Enough things to keep kids entertained. Easy to drive and park, good looking and dependable. All these new minivans can give you these things. But what minivan can give you the most of what your looking for? For entertainment. you can't beat the Chrysler/Dodge. Storage is tops too. Hauling big or small stuff home from Home Depot? Dodge, stow n go beats them all. Got a small one? Dodge has the only integrated car booster seat in the industry.Easy to drive? I think they're all pretty easy to drive. Ride? Dodge has a firmer ride for those that like it. Chrysler has a softer ride for those that like it softer. I think all are pretty darn dependable now. Outside of seating for eight, there is no feature the others have that Dodge/Chrysler's doesn't have. But there sure a heck of a lot of features the Dodge/Chrysler's have, the others don't. Dodge/Chrysler's only draw back up to now has been resale value. But if you keep your minivan over three years, the difference in resale value will be pretty much meaningless. Keep it for 5,10,15 years and the engine blows up or tranny goes out, they will fix it for nothing. How can you beat that? It's not just a kiddy van. Adults have a lot of toys they love in those vans too. |
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