Last post on Dec 06, 2013 at 12:14 PM
You are in the Honda Civic Hybrid
What is this discussion about?
Honda Civic, Hybrid Cars, Coupe, Sedan
#378 of 1532 I have it documented, honda wouldn't listen
Jul 31, 2010 (7:08 pm)
Go to youtube and search for "honda civic hybrid battery problems"
I have it documented and even had a techinician drive my car and it had the issues I was complaining about. Still Honda did nothing. I asked them to send someone and drive my car and figure out why there is something wrong when all there tests show nothing. They refused. I took this as a cover up. They don't want to know or already know. So when someone says they can't reproduce the problem, BS. Honda still wouldn't do anything. I could reproduce power loss, battery loss, battery charging, all these issues at the drop of a hat. I had only 48K miles on mine. I work with someone with a 2005 HCH and they have no issues. We drive the same amount in the same heat. Honda better ne listening. If they dont do something major, there will be a class action lawsuit and we will win. They are already losing arbitration with the lemon laws.
#379 of 1532 Re: Honda Rage [civic_duty]
Jul 31, 2010 (7:27 pm)
I am not telling you to shut up or stop complaining. I am just saying stop doing it on this forum if you don't have something new to add, besides an emotional rant. Post more YouTube videos like the more recent post. Put more data out there, along with documentation. Go scream at Honda headquarters and invite the TV cameras. Write letters to the major car magazines and other forums. Start a letter writing campaign and give us all the address. Go scream to a class action lawyer specialist.
There are lots of useful things you could do with your energy and sarcasm (which I do appreciate, by the way). But screaming here just gets more people worked up in an unproductive way. Let's find a way to get this thing fixed. It won't be easy, and won't be fast, but it can happen.
#380 of 1532 Re: Honda Rage [civic_duty]
Jul 31, 2010 (7:40 pm)
Civic Duty #2:
Well, you don't know scientific instruments then, and their operators (who can talk), and the situation is not that much different. Operator error is always a possibility that must be considered, whether you like to admit it or not. I have no idea whether any of this would be driver related; my gut instinct says no, but it must be considered.
I also don't dispute that there is a problem with some cars. The problem is we don't know why some cars are affected and some are not. Think about it. If every HCH ended up having this problem, you probably wouldn't be able to get into the dealership because of the problem. So, what is the difference with some of these cars. If we can figure that out, then the problem can be solved.
But, again, screaming here won't help solve that. Use this forum to organize a better response to Honda that they can't ignore. It won't be easy, and you will probably get another warning from the moderator, but you need to find other ways to turn up the heat.
Good luck. I am tuning out.
#381 of 1532 Re: Update: Honda's "Message" [mrlar]
Aug 01, 2010 (9:50 am)
Thanks for posting this. I'll give my comments based on what I know about the failure modes of the batteries
>To help prevent early IMA battery deterioration, a software update is needed for the IMA battery.
Notice that they are addressing "early deterioration" not "failure". They are trying to catch it before the problems set in.
What is the problem?
Your vehicle's IMA battery may deteriorate and eventually fail before its normal usable life is reached. Frequent stop-and-go driving during warm weather speeds up the IMA battery deterioration.
Translation: running the battery down in the heat will harm the battery. Stop and go traffic frequently results in the battery charge being depleted. I know for a fact that leaving it depleted will cause damage especially in the heat. If you deplete the battery and then park the car, the cell balance will take a hit.
>To help prevent early IMA battery deterioration, a software update is needed for the IMA battery.
AFTER YOUR VEHICLE IS UPDATED, you may notice one or more of the following changes to the IMA system. All of them are normal, and will greatly improve the life of the IMA battery:
* When the vehicle is in auto idle stop, the engine restarts sooner. It also now restarts with only two bars displayed on the IMA battery level gauge.
* EVEN WITH UP TO FOUR BARS DISPLAYED ON THE IMA BATTERY LEVEL GAUGE, AUTO IDLE STOP MAY NOT OCCUR.
* To ensure there's plenty of power for engine starting and accelerating from a stop, the IMA system reserves more battery power. THIS REDUCES THE IMA ASSIST AS THE VEHICLE SPEED INCREASES.
Note that all of these relate to stop and go. Presumably the battery will allow you to deplete it when underway. Each of these relate to when the battery is low. When it has an adequate charge, these rules don't come into play (ie it will act like normal).
>* The IMA battery level gauge more accurantely indicates the battery's state-of-charge. You will also notice that the level bars stay in the middle of the gauge more.
I'm not sure if this is technically true. From the late Insight updates, owners have found that the car tries to keep the battery half full (which is better for the battery). So this may be a case of more accurately showing the charge or it might be the car forcing the charge to that level.
Unfortunately, this is a clue that sufferers of this specific problem are, to put it bluntly, leadfoots. Those that are light on the gas don't tend to deplete their batteries in stop and go traffic. This also explains why some see no mpg loss and others see significant loss.
Perhaps some of the people here that are experiencing poor assist performance and decreased mpg would take notice of their battery gauge when it happens to see if it relates to the problems. We all bought hybrids to get better gas mileage, but some driving styles are incompatible with hybrids. 2010 Insight owners get great mileage because the car teaches them how to drive economically. It may be the case that some of you can get your car's performance back by changing your driving styles. Does anyone want to try?
And no, I'll repeat again: I do not work for Honda. I'm a 2001 Insight owner that among other thing enjoys competing in mpg races.
#382 of 1532 This problem affects EVERYONE
Aug 01, 2010 (3:32 pm)
I know you weren't talking about me specifically, but you might want to think twice before you make blanket statements based on personal assumptions. What you wrote.....
>>Unfortunately, this is a clue that sufferers of this specific problem are, to put it bluntly, leadfoots
simply is NOT TRUE.
I certainly suffered from this problem, and if I was a leadfoot, I would have been posting here from the very beginning complaining that I was only getting 32mpg (or whatever) as I've seen other people having done. Nope. I was constantly getting 55-56 MPG REGULARLY from Day One. I even managed to eek out 60+ MPG on an entire tank of gas (though that was rare). But I regularly was getting 53, 55, 56 MPG for the entire life of the car (my "A TRIP" odometer) until the battery problem began occurring and the software "updates" were installed.
As convenient as might be to think otherwise, this battery problem has affected EVERYONE across the board -- not just leadfoots as you might want to assume. In fact, I'm sure a good portion of those who are the angriest are the ones that take the time and effort to drive lightly, and in the most fuel-sipping way -- and have their effort paid back by a car company basically stripping away their hybrid functions because their batteries wouldn't hold up properly the way Toyota's or other brands do.
One last note: For those in California, don't forget that our MPG would have dropped anyway even without the "updates" over the last year or so, as new state laws went into effect requiring ALL gas in the state now to be oxyginated (such as with ethanol). In Calif, up until Jan 1st 2010, it was a gas company's choice whether to add ethanol or not (and in fact, as most started doing so, Arco was one of the last holdouts, not changing their mix until the last minute near the end of 2009 -- one of the reasons I switched to Arco after the other brands started oxyginating early -- though now all brands by law are pretty much the same in this regard. And if you're wondering, the law does NOT require them to post labels mentioning this on their pumps, even though some stations do and others don't).
That said, I would notice immediately when oxyginated gas was used (with the real-time MPG meter) and could tell immediately when a station or brand changed their mix (as all now have in Calif). I'm taking that and all other factors into account, believe me. But my car was "updated" while I was still using non-oxyginated gas, and immediately saw the MPG drop as soon as the update was done (literally). Not only did it drop substantially after the update, but then once Arco (the last holdout for not oxyginating gas) finally changed, it dropped yet even more (that last one not Honda's fault). But the biggest drop was from the software "updates" -- and you need only use your eyes to see how little (barely a bar or two) the assist now comes on -- if anything at all.
We're not stupid, we're not all leadfoots or any other catagory someone may want to put us in because that's the only solution that makes sense to them. This problem affects EVERYONE who has this car.
This isn't something that's consuming me or my time (I didn't post for almost a year after my posts on my car getting altered, until I got the notice from Honda and thought I'd alert others about it), but at the same time, a buyer never forgets something like this. I'll use my HCH until it's time to get another car. But you can be sure that I won't even consider a Honda anymore after this. And I'm certainly not going in and get what little is left of my hybrid function stripped away even more.
#383 of 1532 Re: This problem affects EVERYONE [mrlar]
Aug 01, 2010 (3:46 pm)
This Ogre guy runs a battery replacement center. His car must be constantly worked on because he is the only person in the world whose car gets 2500 miles per gallon. Don't pay him any mind. Honda must pay him handsomely.
#384 of 1532 Re: This problem affects EVERYONE [shonda3]
Aug 01, 2010 (6:30 pm)
My 2007 HCH can be a slug when it is hot and the batteries are low. Which is a lot. I would hope this update would fix it and keep the MPGs the same. Everyone seems leery of anyone with a Honda of America link. I personally would love them to chime in on this thread. There is two sides to this story and I would like to hear both sides before I update my car.
#385 of 1532 Re: This problem affects EVERYONE [pamslave]
Aug 02, 2010 (1:23 am)
We all remember Einstein's definition of insanity.
#386 of 1532 Re: This problem affects EVERYONE [mrlar]
Aug 02, 2010 (4:03 am)
>I certainly suffered from this problem, and if I was a leadfoot, I would have been posting here from the very beginning complaining that I was only getting 32mpg (or whatever
Then you are not suffering from this specific problem. Please don't misread what I wrote. The specific problem that I wrote about was one of running the battery down in stop and go traffic. Your self-described driving style most likely doesn't use the battery very much. More likely, you've been bitten by the "keep it half full" change earlier which would have you regen-ing a lot more than before.
We are talking about the newest update. Presumably it is not the same one you had earlier.
#387 of 1532 Re: This problem affects EVERYONE [shonda3]
Aug 02, 2010 (4:48 am)
>This Ogre guy runs a battery replacement center. His car must be constantly worked on because he is the only person in the world whose car gets 2500 miles per gallon. Don't pay him any mind. Honda must pay him handsomely.
That's right, attack the only person here that's trying to help.
Your battery is a part that is going to wear out. How you use it will determine if it lasts 90,000 miles or 190,000. Honda only cares that you make it past the 80,000 mark because after that, they have no obligation. You might be surprised to find that they don't make much money on the $3000 battery packs that they sell. That means that they are out over $2500 every time they replace a battery under warranty.
I've noticed that Insight owners as a group tend to pay more attention to their battery and assist and regen gauges than most Civic owners. Most of them know exactly how many bars they have to get down to before forced charging begins, etc. This is probably because a different type of driver is more likely to buy the Insight with it's shortcomings than those that buy Civics. Maybe we can use some of the techniques they've developed to improve the situation here or at least to understand what is actually going on (what the car is doing specifically that is causing this behavior).
What I challenged people here was to do the same thing and see if there was a correlation to the mpg and assist problem that was related to low states of battery charge. If there is, then you CAN alter your driving behavior and make your car perform better - because Honda sure isn't going to do anything about it - not if it's going to cost them more warranty batteries.
That should be proof that I'm not getting paid by Honda, because if I was, they'd fire me for saying it.
As for gas mileage, I used to get 55 mpg overall, which is horrible in an Insight. I learned how to drive it and now get about 65. Driving a 2003 Civic Hybrid, I usually average about 52 on the highway in a CVT and 58 in a MT. The same highway driving gives about 70 in a MT Insight.