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Hybrid Vehicles Honda Civic Hybrid Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems
185 messages, Last post on Dec 03, 2009 at 2:36 PM
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 24, 2009 10:56 pm) |
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UPDATE: I just had my IMA battery replaced. Funny that Honda (especially the Honda Corporate Rep) absolutely refused to do anything with the battery unless an error code was shown (it didn't matter how many times or how often it was crashing -- or how terribly unsafe it can be if it crashes at the wrong time). Remember, I lived with it crashing from time to time for about 9 months and didn't bother because it was just a nuisance. Only as it started to crash more and more (like day after day) and it happened while merging onto the fast lane of a freeway uphill (the worst possible combination, but a stretch of freeway I drive all the time) when it crashed and lost all power, did I take it as serious as the problem IS. Anyway, again, with me ready to file a small claims court case against them (paperwork in hand) the dealer managed to convince corporate to do what they should've done anyway in the first place (as, at least here in California, the hybrid system and battery are warrantied for either 8 or 10 years, even if the rest of the car has just the standard 3yr/36k warranty). So the batteries were replaced today. After the paragraph indicating the problem and complaint, here's what the service people entered on my service record: "...customer is requesting that the IMA bettery be replaced and have the PCM update back to original program. FOUND DTC P0A7F stored. FOUND IMA BATTERY TO BE DETERIORATED. Replaced the IMA battery under in warranty goodwill gesture per XXXXX XXX (person's name), Authorized on 9/XX/XX, authorization #: XXXXXX." "Goodwill gesture?" It's STATE LAW in California that the hybrid and hybrid batteries are under an 8-10 year warranty, and even as Honda Corporate insisted there's no problem with the battery, that they don't do "blind repairs", right there in the record, "FOUND BATTERY TO BE DETERIORATED." How does having to be ready to go to court to get them to do what the law requires them to do become a "goodwill gesture?" By the way, does anyone know what the "P0A7F" is? Is that the firmware update? They were also unable to install the old firmware/software, as they said they don't have it, and Honda doesn't provide the old software. So now I finally have non-deteriorated batteries, but of course, the hybrid has been serverely crippled, and it's no where near the car it was when I bought it. In reply to Cdubya1's question, your car's MPG has nothing to do with the battery in that it's the software/firmware that controls how much/little the IMA comes on (or not), and with the latest firmware update (even with a brand new battery) the hybrid comes on about 50% less. I wanted to drive a 2009 Civic Hybrid myself to see if the new ones also have this very toned-down hybrid, but the dealer didn't have any on the lot for me to try. However, I DID try the new Insight. Yes, I realize this is a completely different car and battery, but I test drove it around town for a bit, and sad to report, the same anemic hybrid is on that car. Instead of "VU-meter" like bars, the Insight has just a needle move, but it was the equivalent of where my hybrid (and anyone else who has the "update" done or forced upon them) is: even when in "eco mode" (on the Insight there's a button you push for eco mode to supposedly use the hybrid more), the most it would give was the equivalent of 2-3 bars unless you do a hard press of the pedal (again, negating the purpose of the hybrid in the first place if you waste gas by doing really hard accelerations). So the long and short of it is, I have yet to verify that the 2009 HCHs have this crippled/serverly toned-down IMA firmware as well (someone else here on the forum tested one), but I can report that the Insight's hybrid is as anemic as an HCH's with the "update" installed. I have a new IMA battery now, but nothing has changed with MPG or hybrid usage because of the new update. One point once again to remind people, is that everyone's case is different. This is simply what happened in my case. But I have seen firsthand Honda Corporate absoultely NOT wanting to take responsibility for what they are legally responsible to do (replace defective, deteriorated batteries that at least in California, are under warranty). I suppose what I'd tell people are, DON'T have the update done if you can help it (because you can never go back, and it'll make your hybrid really anemic and barely come on unless you really floor the pedal). If one's IMA battery is dying or dead, I'm not sure if Honda will replace the batteries WITHOUT doing the update. It's too late for me though. I have a nice almost-non-hybrid, normal Civic now that I paid quite a bit more for. I had it as a working (instead of barely there, anemic) hybrid for 3 years before this update was done. Well, I guess that's it. If anyone has any ideas on how to have the original firmware installed (other than putting in another unit), or knows anyone who still has it and can install it or send it on a disc or something, please let us know. Also, I was just wondering if anyone knows what the "P0A7F" is? Is that the firmware update? It would be foolish for me to say here that I will never buy a Honda as long as I live. But I will tell you this: I will never, EVER consider a Honda in a hybrid or any other newer technology car. Comparing them to Toyota, the choice is clear who I should've gone with in a hybrid, and I forsee myself sticking to hybrids and other cutting-edge cars in the future. I'm not ever going to forget this. |
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 29, 2009 2:21 pm) See this link which is for the Honda Accord Hybrid, but which seems to be somewhat relevant.
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 29, 2009 2:21 pm) |
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We have had an 09 HCH for one year now. The first battery was replaced 12/08, with no problems since. I took in for service and to complain about sluggish performance when accelerating from a stop. Of course, the technician was unable to duplicate. We had the 09-39 IMA recall installed (FYI, this is to help with the cold weather problem that the IMA has.  ). The technician also noted the following on the invoice: "Performed crank pattern relearn and start clutch learn." I don't know about the crank pattern, but the clutch refers to the clutch that engages the IMA motor, and can be responsible for some problems (according to the technician). It is interesting that it is possible for the system to "learn" anything, but I wonder if some of the problems reported here could be helped by some "relearning." I can say that the IMA performance seemed to improved (more aggressive use of assist), although mileage is still about the same (40-42). Anybody know anything about this issue?
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Replying to: MB_in_MN (Sep 29, 2009 6:50 pm) That can't be quite right, the IMA is permanently attached to the output from the ICE, or at least that's how I understood it. Does it refer to a clutch between the IMA/ICE combination and the transmission? |
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Does it refer to a clutch between the IMA/ICE combination and the transmission? Sloppy writing on my part. I believe this is the clutch that allows the IMA to connect with the drive train, however that is done. Your description makes sense. I was told that this clutch can fail, but there is usually some noise associated with the failure. I'm assuming that this is the modern equivalent of the old clutch cable adjustment. |
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Replying to: shonda3 (Sep 11, 2009 4:01 am)
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 29, 2009 2:21 pm) Per the reference manuals that I have, P0A7F which is a "soft" DTC (it will not light the CEL or IMA) means that the battery capacity has deteriorated to less than 10% of the original 6.5Ah. This means that while it is capable of producing as much current and driving the motor as strongly, it will be depleted in only 10% of the time of a new battery. As I said before, your bad luck was that all 120 cells deteriorated at the same rate and the balance was never thrown out far enough to trigger the hard DTCs. It's important to note that this code does not automatically mean the battery is dead. If you then drive it aggressively down to "empty" and then conservatively drive it up to "full" a few times, the capacity might rise back up to 20% or even 50% or more. The software updates that they applied address issues like this and either try to prevent the deterioration or try to make it easier to recover from it. I know your car is not performing the way it used to, but the big question is: what kind of mileage are you getting now? Different may not mean worse (mpg-wise). |
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Replying to: grandtotal (Sep 29, 2009 3:33 pm) No it doesn't. A false P0A7F might be thrown because of that, but not in this case. No IMA light was lit. Contact me privately if you want more information on this or any other OBD code. |
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