Last post on Apr 02, 2013 at 6:27 PM
You are in the Honda Civic Hybrid
What is this discussion about?
Honda Civic, Hybrid Cars, Coupe, Sedan
#1394 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [bryan772]
Jul 10, 2012 (8:13 am)
After the update my tack is 2000rpm at 68 mph on a level road. Not sure what it was before the update. Seems like there is something not right about your update. Why not get them to redo it?
#1395 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [bryan772]
Jul 10, 2012 (9:04 am)
Have you gone back to the dealer? Something is not right! It was my understanding that the update was only for the 2006-2008 models and that the 2009-2011 refresh models already had the "update" applied at the factory. (Can someone else on forum confirm).
You did have awesome mpg before the issue. Are yo a hypermiler?
I too have a 2009 hybrid but my mileage was always between 37-44 depending how much hwy vs. city we drive.
Can you give us more details about your car such as miles, tire pressure, and mantainace. And dealer response. Likely not the issue, but have you had the CVT transmission fluid changed on schedule?
#1396 of 1484 Re: Bad IMA battery or controller? [vidar]
Jul 10, 2012 (7:13 pm)
Update on the 12 volt problem. The standard battery went bad. A combination of age (4 1/2 yrs) and heat (a week in 105 degrees + driving) had the cells degrade into a lead paste. Held voltage but no amps or charge after 18-20 hours. The person that assisted me in the A/C relay troubleshooting posts as Ogre GEV. Saved me a lot of money and frustration.
Also, replying to Bryan (message post #1393), my hybrid is a 2005 model. This year also fell under the software update umbrella. Fortunally l already had issues with the local dealer, and will never take the car in to them for maintenance. My preferred dealer is about 100 miles away, and never had time to get to them before I started reading about bad things on the update. So my vehicle software is as from the factory.
That said, it currently runs 3000 rpm at 72 mph. Mileage is about 38 mpg. Has dropped from a steady 42 mpg (with A/C running) running mostly at 60 mph or higher. This nearing a CVT fluid change, engine oil change and probably added friction from front wheel bearigs going bad (193,000 odometer reading). Spark plugs new at about 170,000 miles
Still running original IMA battery pack, and noticing more cycling down to about 1/2 charge now. Charge indicator kicks in 3 bars at steady speeds, then up to about 3/4 charge after about 2 miles when charge indicator goes neutral.
The hybrid system for the 2005 model year did two things: contributed up to 60% torque to the gas engine during acceleration, and the option (driver selectable) of shutting down the engine, thus also the A/C, at stops from 10 mph or greater. So for steady highway speed the IMA battery never comes into play. But once the computer is reprogrammed to 'baby' the battery, the fuel air mixture is richened hoping that more gas delivered will make a weak engine perform better.
There has to be a baseline software that can be loaded back into the control module. As each dealership takes on the character of the owner, it may take some calling around to find a shop willing or capable of doing just that. Also, and this may be cost prohibitive, find out if an off-the-shelf replacement module comes factory loaded with the baseline software, or if service bulletins require updates on all replacement modules.
#1397 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [lowbrid]
Jul 11, 2012 (8:15 pm)
The 09 HCH was bought new w/ 36 miles on it. Now has 36,500 miles. Regularly serviced, Synthetic oil and got oil changes done ~30% on the maintenance minder. Never let it go to 15 or when the red wrench appears. CVT fluid replaced last oil change ~32000 miles. Had Dunlop LRR tires originally, just replaced them w/ Michelin Primacy MXV4's. Took slight 2-3 MPG hit but quieter ride aside from the high revving engine. Tire pressure I think is 32, the dealer usually took care of that for me and I didn't want to risk blowouts by elevating the pressure. Also last oil change they found the lead acid battery was reporting weak and replaced that. (In general car batteries need to be replaced every few years with the hot summers here.)
No issues until 18K miles, the IMA light came on. 2 months before the IMA the car was parked w/ 5-6 bars. Shortly after starting the car, the battery emptied out then charged about 4 miles later. Some days it even cycled 2 times in the 18 mile commute.
Took it to the dealer the day after the IMA light came on. They said the battery had "deteriorated" and was not able to keep a charge. Battery was replaced and all was just great for several months, no more battery cycles at start.
The commute is 18 miles each way w/ a gradual elevation change from ~2930 feet to 2530 feet, no highways. 60-70 mpg drive into town, 35-50 on the way back depending on traffic & A/C. Weekly sat at 44-48. Still does close to that even now but closer to 40-44 range as it revs higher in general after the update. Generally drive light on acceleration and coast to red lights when possible. Got good at maximizing the electric pull and regen.
The update did make one improvement, it no longer lets the battery go empty w/ auto-stop and A/C on. That little electric compressor drained the IMA to where it was empty when the engine started up it took off like a slug and had to floor it to get it going. Doesn't happen like that after the update since the engine goes back on before that happens.
Then in preparation for a long drive with family I brought it to the dealer for an early oil change and to have all the belts & fluids checked and I asked them to see if there were any pending updates for the IMA. Being a computer guy I figured it wouldn't hurt to see if there are any updates to lessen the chance of another battery failure. This was last March 2011 ~26000 miles.
They found 3 software updates and applied them. They let me walk over to they guy applying the patch and I asked him what the patch did etc. I was told that the update changed how the auto stop and SOC (State of Charge) works. He also mentioned "slightly" higher revs on the highway. I didn't think much of it at the time but its much more than slightly in hindsight.
During that drive, there was several occasions going up or down hills where the car had a hard time getting up hills. Sounded like I was driving in Nascar but shedding speed if it was uphill. Other family members who shared the long drive who have driven the car before the update also noticed the problem too.
The Run Around
Took the car to the dealer it was purchased from 3 times with no luck. They tried applying the update again w/ no change. Took it on the freeway w/ a laptop hooked up to it claimed they didn't see anything wrong. They also didn't exactly take the car out of city limits where the speed limit goes to 75 with hills long enough to see the problem and kept downplaying it saying that I didn't know what I was talking about basically the car is fine.
Took the car to the other dealer in town, they took it on the freeway and didn't see any issues. Called Honda CS a year ago. They set up an appt with a manager who gave me the run around and said that there is nothing they could do and to go back to the dealer. Back and fourth 3x.
Both the dealer said that they can't put the original firmware back and that they didn't have a later version of the firmware. Still a year and half later the problem still exists. Thankfully my commute is all surface streets and the issue only gets bad with hills on the highway otherwise I would have traded this car in last summer. The gear ratio appears to have been tweaked to rev higher to make up for the less power from the electric motor. I can imagine many folks don't notice this particular problem as some states don't have 75 MPH speed limits on the interstate or hills and mountains nearby to drive though. If those conditions exits, this car just can't handle them as well as before the update. Average RPM on a highway with hills is ~3-6K where it had been ~2-4K. There is another dealership about 100 miles from here that I have not tried yet but considering it. (prolly burn up almost a whole tank getting there)
The 2 in the area don't seem to be competent enough to genuinely do something about the issue or properly escalate it and Honda CS doesn't help much either. Good times.
#1398 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [bryan772]
Jul 12, 2012 (6:28 am)
I think your best bet is to file a complaint with the BBB and go to arbitration if necessary. That is the only way you will get a fair hearing.
#1399 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [bryan772]
Jul 12, 2012 (7:05 am)
You're stuck. I have an '07 HCH and now I'm used to it. Been there, done that - your story is mine 2 years ago. But that doesn't mean Honda is off the hook for their fraudulent actions. Google "rego v. Honda" or e-mail me at k4dwoodyahoo.com.
#1400 of 1484 High RPM's going up hills
Jul 12, 2012 (3:26 pm)
I have an 07 with 198K. IMA replaced free at 140K (just before the california 150K emissions warranty). I have always found that the RPMs are much higher using cruise control. Whenever I go up a big hill, I kick it out of cruise and always keep the rpms under 3.5K. It'd go much higher with cruise on. On one hill that i have to take every day, I will sometimes slow to 53 which is no big deal since the speed limit is 55. If I feel like working the engine harder, I can go faster but it kills the gas mileage to go fast up hills (for all cars, not just hybrids). Overall, I think the firmware update was an improvement, since I'm now never completely out of juice. I do wish the cruise control wasn't so agressive with the RPMs though..
#1401 of 1484 Re: High RPM's going up hills [selinz]
Jul 12, 2012 (4:14 pm)
In hilly terrain cruise control is not a fuel efficient option. Watching your rpm is one of the best ways to drive fuel efficiently. In taking off I try to never go above 2000 rpm if possible.
#1402 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [bryan772]
Jul 16, 2012 (11:33 am)
This update also broke my car. I have experienced exactly the same thing, and have read post after post of the same complaint. So far, Honda is not taking responsibility for this, but IT IS their fault. My gas mileage as dropped 6 to 10 mpg, and I have NO POWER. Every time I get on an expressway I am risking my life. I guess it is going to take someone being killed for Honda to be forced to take responsibility. I have only had my 2009 HCH for a little over a year and owe more than I can trade it for, so I am stuck with an inferior car with worse gas mileage than many new non-hybrids and is dangerous. This is my 4th Honda, second HCH, but doubt I will purchase a Honda in the future. We need to get up a petition or something to try to force Honda to do something about this BEFORE SOMEONE DIES.
#1403 of 1484 Re: The update that broke my car [thereigo2]
Jul 16, 2012 (11:48 am)
As you can see this has been going on for a number of years, mine is an 06, went to crap after the updates. Same issue, especially if the air conditioner is on and trying to get across a lane or on the freeway. Honda does not care that this is a safety hazard! I will never buy another Honda.