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Hybrid Vehicles Honda Civic Hybrid Honda Civic Hybrid IMA Problems
187 messages, Last post on Dec 06, 2009 at 11:23 AM
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Replying to: cdubya1 (Sep 21, 2009 6:37 pm) The dealership said it's not like they have the old software to install... he said they'd have to get it from Honda, and they're not going to send it. They consider the new software the correct software. I asked him "well what about cars that don't have battery problems... it's not a recall, so they're still running with a full hybrid." He said yes. But he also said (don't know if it's true or not, but it's what he said), that the latest software doesn't fix JUST the battery problem, but a group of problems that may occur on the car. So if someone comes in with Problem X or Problem Y or Problem Z (one of them being the battery crashes, but it's not the only one) then they'd get the "update." He also said (again, I don't know if this is true or not -- can someone verify this?) that Honda considers this new software to be the normal software now, and that ALL THE NEW 2009 HCHs HAVE THE NEW SOFTWARE IN THE CARS. Is this true? I noticed someone posted something just a few posts back that said: >>I also informed you that I would never have bought a vehicle that performed as the 2009 Honda Civic Hybrid did, nor as my 2006 is performing now. So is it true then, that the 2009 HCHs have this software that makes the hybrid only 1/2 to 1/3rd as useful as it originally was? If so, I'm assuming it's because even with Honda replacing the batteries now (and for new 2009 car sales) they don't want to be flooded 2-3 years from now again as the replaced (or new) but still cheap/defective batteries inevitably go bad. So I guess Honda is making sure everyone from now on's hybrid system never gets much use? So that the battery will have a longer life? At this point I'm not sure what to do. The batteries are on order, and are supposed to come in next week and be installed. It's about time, because the crashes are happening all the time now. The "update" didn't fix it of course. But the car I bought and paid $4000 more than a regular civic for, is hardly a hybrid anymore. In my court case, I was going to demand either $4000 or no monetary compensation if they put the IMA software back to the way the car was when I looked it over and decided to buy it. With Honda replacing the batteries, that's good, but I still don't have the car I bought and paid for. By the way, I'm only writing this above to show what has happened in my case. Everyone's case is different. The crashes increased in frequency (to where they'd happen on consecutive days), was able to show it to the techs themselves, have been documenting it with photos showing the zero level and miles on the odometer, and was ready to file a small claims case (already had the paperwork in hand). Can someone verify though, that the "update" is standard on all the new 2009 HCHs? Or is it in fact, just for people who have experienced one of the problems on the list of problems that the update addresses? |
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Hi mrlar, that was me that test drove the 2009, that car did have the updated software, don't know if all the 09's have them installed or not. I am hoping to have some sort of response from the Honda Rep from the letter I sent, not holding my breath though. Am hoping that the battery in my car crashes, as of now, it simply sucks to drive it in the hot weather, N. CA, go figure... I don't know what else to do, as they continue to say that the battery is working as designed. No way would I consider purchasing an 09, how they have sold any if they all have the software update is beyond me! Keep us posted on your car.. Thanks
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Replying to: rosie2006 (Sep 24, 2009 6:58 pm) Does it work somewhat like the way I described above (ie, most of the time only getting 3 bars max unless you really press hard, and such?) I guess Honda's throwing in the towel and instead of using better batteries, really toning down the hybrid. When I first bought the car I knew it wasn't a Prius, but I considered everything (it was close), and bought it anyway. Had it been the way it is now, I would not have. And when it comes time for the next car... Just for the heck of it, I did a check of the Prius as well as the HCH to see what the service bulletins and recalls were. Couldn't find anything major for the Prius (I know there were stalls at first and software updates and such, but nothing really major like battery problems the HCH is having). As far as weather, that's another strange thing. I live where it is MUCH cooler (by the beach). It rarely gets above mid 70s here even in the summer. Maybe there is one week each year where it gets hot (low 90s) for a few days, but for instance, no one here has air-conditioning. I park it indoors, and the garage is so cool, I store food there and even on the hottest days, it's cool. When I go to work, it's parked under shade. There are times of course in daily life where you drive to the store and park it outside, etc... but in 3 years of having the car, I have gone to a car wash ONCE. That should tell you how it's parked. So it's not constantly exposed to high temps the way it might be to someone in the Valley, or places like Arizona or Texas and such. High temps may indeed cause the battery deterioration faster, but the batteries go bad just fine in normal temps as well. It's really a shame. It's a nice looking car that, until this point, I really liked. I guess now I have (practically) a normal Civic that just cost a whole lot more than a normal Civic. OFF TOPIC UPDATE: I changed tires too recently, when (again, because of Honda's design problems), the flawed-designed rear control arm caused cupping on all the tires. They replaced the arm of course but nothing for the tires that went bad. I bought some of the Goodyear Fuel Max tires -- Low Rolling Resistance tires tested specifically on the Honda Civic (not the hybrid, but all the data for fuel savings the company posts is on a Honda Civic). It comes in the HCH's size and specs and stuff, so I paid the extra money for them (a lot of money -- though still less than the Michelin LRR tires). After first putting them on, I noticed a huge drop in gas mileage. I hoped that as the tires "wore in" after a bit, it'd improve. I'm glad to report, it has. With the hybrid crippled on my car now, and hardly ever coming on, I'd have absolutely terrible mileage if it wasn't for these tires, which is helping me get only "worse" mileage instead of terrible. I can see it for myself: the hybrid assist isn't coming on much, but when driving even WITHOUT the assist (with NO assist whatsoever), the real-time MPG meter is showing mileage higher than it used to be with the old OEM tires. It just took a couple weeks for it to start performing well. So I can report that they DO work well (after an initial couple of weeks -- don't freak out at first, it WILL get good). Specs on the tire are great (wear, weight, durability, etc) but of course it's still more than normal non-LRR tires. But after the initial few weeks, I DO see a big improvement on mileage where the hybrid isn't in use (driving the same roads and areas, comparing to similar situations with old tires). It's the Fuel Saver tire by Goodyear. More than regular tires, less than the Yokohama or Michelin LRR tires. |
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Two PSs, one about the tires, the other about the hybrid update: (1) Tires. Just to clear up something in my last post about the tires and MPG: since my hybrid is now in "low usage" mode... for comparison with the older tires, I'm not using the car's *total* MPG (since it's now much lower since the hybrid system is hardly coming on). What I'm using to compare mileage on the Goodyear tires vs the old OEM tires, is times when driving with NO hybrid assist at all (since that's the way my car is now most of the time anyway!) I'm always looking at the real-time MPG meter (the real-time one that constantly changes) and I know after 3 years of driving the car where the meter always is at certain speeds and places. So I'm not comparing apples to oranges but comparing only apples to apples -- comparing the "hybrid completely off/no assist at all" moments on my car now (which is most of the time) vs. the same conditions as it was with the old tires (times where no assist went on at all). And after a couple weeks, the mileage DID improve in comparison to similar speeds and places in the past where, like now, the hybrid system wasn't even coming on at all. Right now my overall tankful mileage is really suffering because the hybrid system is hardly coming on, but in driving with NO hybrid assist, the new tires help improve the mileage compared to the same situations before with the old tires. For the first week or two the mileage (again, same exact circumstances) was much worse, but the tires have now been worked in I guess, and the mileage while driving without any hybrid assist has improved over what the OEM tires gave under the same conditions. (2) The software update: Before the update, the car would always be right at "2" on the RPM needle for most coasting speed operation on the freeway. I never really went above the "2" except maybe when passing. Right on the "2" is where the needle always seemed to settle when driving 63-65mph flat on a freeway, and getting good gas mileage. With the old software, even with just a tiny push at that speed and place, the hybrid would come on with the RPM there at "2". NO MORE. Now the hybrid will NOT come on at ALL at 2 on the RPM gauge, but only start if you push medium (not light) on the pedal, and are at or above 2.5. Doing so will give you only 2-3 measly little bars MAX -- and again, that's only when pushing down medium to accelerate. And while flooring it is required to see most assist bars (as was the same in the past), pushing down HARD (not flooring it, but pushing down hard) is now the only way to see even just 5 bars of assist. And unless you're in the process of accelerating at least medium-hard (like from a stop light), you won't see any bars AT ALL until 2.5 RPM. 3 years of constant driving around 64-65mph  2 on the RPM and eager hybrid assist are no more. Now it's a piddly 2-3 bars only at or above 2.5, only when pushing down at least medium hard. One final thought: I think about it this way. Imagine buying a nice new large-screen TV with a volume setting that can go from 0 (mute) to 10 (max vol) -- and shortly after buying it (while still under warranty) a very loud buzzing comes on whenever the volume is at anything above "3." You take it in for repair, but instead of getting rid of the substandard parts, the company simply resets the firmware so that the volume only goes from 0 to 3 instead of 0 to 10! You can hardly hear your movie or TV show, but when you complain, the company says "the problem is fixed. No more buzzing, right?" And if you complain that you can hardly hear the TV, and it's absolutely NOT the TV you bought and paid for, they simply say "well you do have SOME sound. This is the fix for this problem. End of story." Then, even if they DO replace the defective part, they still refuse to restore and reinstall the original software, because the new settings will help them not have to address that defective part in all the other sets. At least those who haven't purchased the sets yet but are just looking can see there's not much there anymore. But for the rest of the people who paid for and bought those TV sets that now only go up to barely a whisper on the volume? Would you buy another TV from that company?
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 24, 2009 10:56 pm) 
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I've had a good run with my 2007 Civic hybrid, that is up to about three months ago. I've enjoyed fuel economy of over 45 mpg overall and 42-43 mpg in the summertime. However, since the beginning of June, fuel economy has fallen to 37-38 mpg. In this period I've had full IMA battery failures that had not occurred previously. I've had failures in the past due to summer heat in the Coachella Valley, but now it occurs in the morning when it is cooler. I have over 75,000 miles on the car. I've discussed the issue with my dealer who appears sincere about resolving the problem, even if it means replacing the IMA battery under warranty. There hasn't been any mention of a software update and I wouldn't agree to an update based on the comments I've read.
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Replying to: scbrian (Sep 26, 2009 10:51 pm) Let me know if they actually replace it, without error codes, etc, American Honda is refusing to do much of anything... yup, had a great run with my 06 until recently too.... |
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 24, 2009 10:56 pm) |
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UPDATE: I just had my IMA battery replaced. Funny that Honda (especially the Honda Corporate Rep) absolutely refused to do anything with the battery unless an error code was shown (it didn't matter how many times or how often it was crashing -- or how terribly unsafe it can be if it crashes at the wrong time). Remember, I lived with it crashing from time to time for about 9 months and didn't bother because it was just a nuisance. Only as it started to crash more and more (like day after day) and it happened while merging onto the fast lane of a freeway uphill (the worst possible combination, but a stretch of freeway I drive all the time) when it crashed and lost all power, did I take it as serious as the problem IS. Anyway, again, with me ready to file a small claims court case against them (paperwork in hand) the dealer managed to convince corporate to do what they should've done anyway in the first place (as, at least here in California, the hybrid system and battery are warrantied for either 8 or 10 years, even if the rest of the car has just the standard 3yr/36k warranty). So the batteries were replaced today. After the paragraph indicating the problem and complaint, here's what the service people entered on my service record: "...customer is requesting that the IMA bettery be replaced and have the PCM update back to original program. FOUND DTC P0A7F stored. FOUND IMA BATTERY TO BE DETERIORATED. Replaced the IMA battery under in warranty goodwill gesture per XXXXX XXX (person's name), Authorized on 9/XX/XX, authorization #: XXXXXX." "Goodwill gesture?" It's STATE LAW in California that the hybrid and hybrid batteries are under an 8-10 year warranty, and even as Honda Corporate insisted there's no problem with the battery, that they don't do "blind repairs", right there in the record, "FOUND BATTERY TO BE DETERIORATED." How does having to be ready to go to court to get them to do what the law requires them to do become a "goodwill gesture?" By the way, does anyone know what the "P0A7F" is? Is that the firmware update? They were also unable to install the old firmware/software, as they said they don't have it, and Honda doesn't provide the old software. So now I finally have non-deteriorated batteries, but of course, the hybrid has been serverely crippled, and it's no where near the car it was when I bought it. In reply to Cdubya1's question, your car's MPG has nothing to do with the battery in that it's the software/firmware that controls how much/little the IMA comes on (or not), and with the latest firmware update (even with a brand new battery) the hybrid comes on about 50% less. I wanted to drive a 2009 Civic Hybrid myself to see if the new ones also have this very toned-down hybrid, but the dealer didn't have any on the lot for me to try. However, I DID try the new Insight. Yes, I realize this is a completely different car and battery, but I test drove it around town for a bit, and sad to report, the same anemic hybrid is on that car. Instead of "VU-meter" like bars, the Insight has just a needle move, but it was the equivalent of where my hybrid (and anyone else who has the "update" done or forced upon them) is: even when in "eco mode" (on the Insight there's a button you push for eco mode to supposedly use the hybrid more), the most it would give was the equivalent of 2-3 bars unless you do a hard press of the pedal (again, negating the purpose of the hybrid in the first place if you waste gas by doing really hard accelerations). So the long and short of it is, I have yet to verify that the 2009 HCHs have this crippled/serverly toned-down IMA firmware as well (someone else here on the forum tested one), but I can report that the Insight's hybrid is as anemic as an HCH's with the "update" installed. I have a new IMA battery now, but nothing has changed with MPG or hybrid usage because of the new update. One point once again to remind people, is that everyone's case is different. This is simply what happened in my case. But I have seen firsthand Honda Corporate absoultely NOT wanting to take responsibility for what they are legally responsible to do (replace defective, deteriorated batteries that at least in California, are under warranty). I suppose what I'd tell people are, DON'T have the update done if you can help it (because you can never go back, and it'll make your hybrid really anemic and barely come on unless you really floor the pedal). If one's IMA battery is dying or dead, I'm not sure if Honda will replace the batteries WITHOUT doing the update. It's too late for me though. I have a nice almost-non-hybrid, normal Civic now that I paid quite a bit more for. I had it as a working (instead of barely there, anemic) hybrid for 3 years before this update was done. Well, I guess that's it. If anyone has any ideas on how to have the original firmware installed (other than putting in another unit), or knows anyone who still has it and can install it or send it on a disc or something, please let us know. Also, I was just wondering if anyone knows what the "P0A7F" is? Is that the firmware update? It would be foolish for me to say here that I will never buy a Honda as long as I live. But I will tell you this: I will never, EVER consider a Honda in a hybrid or any other newer technology car. Comparing them to Toyota, the choice is clear who I should've gone with in a hybrid, and I forsee myself sticking to hybrids and other cutting-edge cars in the future. I'm not ever going to forget this. |
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Replying to: mrlar (Sep 29, 2009 2:21 pm) See this link which is for the Honda Accord Hybrid, but which seems to be somewhat relevant.
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