Last post on May 12, 2013 at 12:04 PM
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Toyota 4Runner, Concept Cars, Future Vehicle, SUV
#730 of 769 New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports)
Nov 04, 2010 (1:50 pm)
“The Grand Cherokee is a big improvement over the previous model, with refinement on par with models that cost a lot more,” said David Champion, senior director of the auto test centre. “The 4Runner, which still uses a body-on-frame design, is disappointing on the road. The 4Runner doesn’t let you forget you’re driving a truck.”
They rated the redesigned (and decontented)">link title 4Runner at the bottom of its class.
#731 of 769 Re: New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports) [
Nov 04, 2010 (2:56 pm)
however, this little chestnut says it all: "Although the Grand Cherokee scored so well in testing, CR can't make it recommended—at least not quite yet—because of the Grand Cherokee's lackluster record for reliability."
honestly, tsu670, we get it: you don't like the new 4Runner. move on. it's over.
#732 of 769 Re: New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports) [ [stateofmaine]
Nov 05, 2010 (5:24 am)
Just curious, where did you get your quote from? Perhaps we are reading different articles. Oh, here, I think I found it:
The link I provided in the previous post has the following statement:
"The Grand Cherokee is too new for Consumer Reports to have reliability data, and the 4Runner scored too low in the magazine’s testing to recommend it. The magazine only recommends vehicles that have performed well in its tests, have at least average predicted reliability, and performed at least adequately if crash-tested or included in a government rollover test."
I would imagine CR stopped deciding to recommend the 4Runner after the "vehicles that performed well in its tests" phase of analysis. There's no reason to believe the new 4Runner would not "have at least average predicted reliability, and performed at least adequately if crash-tested or included in a government rollover test." The 4Runner has always had high reliability and safety ratings, and one can reasonably hope Toyota didn't compromise on those factors in its decontenting of the latest version.
Personally, however, if it were time to replace our '08 4Runner Limited, I would seriously look at the new Jeep.
Not saying I would necessarily buy one, but would certainly give it a fair shake, especially in comparison to the new 4Runner. I, too, would be concerned about Chrysler reliability, especially on a 1st year production run of a new version. Might be worth waiting a year or two. Same goes for the 4Runner. The dollar/yen ratio might someday improve substantially.
Thank you for the opportunity to rebut.
#733 of 769 Re: New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports) [tsu670]
Nov 05, 2010 (10:11 am)
oops, my bad. instead of clicking your link i googled it (for some inexplicable reason) and hit upon that Car Connection article first. glad you found it, though.
"The 4Runner doesn't let you forget you're driving a truck." sure sounds like CR penalized the new 4Runner for its "back to its [truck] roots" credo with the 5th generation design. my read on that is that CR placed a premium on a car-like ride and handling; the unibody, IFS/IRS Grand Cherokee delivers on that, of course. but for those of us who want, well, a truck, it just won't suit. different strokes, as they say.
Chrysler is really betting the farm on the new GC (they have to, after all!) and early anecdotal reports indicate the creature comforts are evident, but one can't ignore the company's storied history of crap reliability. the fact that 90 days ago Edmunds' 2011 Grand Cherokee test vehicle blew its power steering pump and threw its serpentine belt—requiring it to be towed home—is likely a strong indication that nothing has changed but the window dressing, i'm afraid.
but, like you said, time will tell. cheers.
#734 of 769 Re: New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports) [tsu670]
Nov 05, 2010 (2:43 pm)
want to add to my previous post that there is a big difference in how reasonable the "wait and see" approach is in buyers' consideration of these two vehicles. namely:
the Grand Cherokee (Jeep itself, more broadly) has a well-founded/deserved reputation for poor quality stretching back many, many years. every mention of Jeep on this sub-forum has come with that caveat and commensurate hesitation, and the professional auto reviewers never fail to make note of it in their critiques either. the new JGC is an attempted "reboot" by a company that in the past decade has been bought and sold, filed for bankruptcy, and is now at the start of a new partnership (with Fiat of all companies... don't get me started). given the state of the american auto industry, of course there's a certain allure to the notion of a homegrown brand making good again, rising from the ashes, and winning out the day. it makes for an awesome story; i'm not immune to its appeal. however, the fact is that the JGC comes burdened by a family history—quality improvements must be deep to be substantive and lasting. and quite honestly, the fact that Chrysler has now grafted its already questionable DNA with Fiat... well, it just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies, let's say.
the 4Runner, on the other hand is the 5th generation of a venerable brand, manufactured—as from the start—in Toyota's renowned Tahara plant with LandCruiser and Lexus models whose build quality exudes, well, quality. the 4Runner's new Prado 150 platform is an evolution of a trusted foundation that's proven its mettle and earned a rock-solid reputation for more than 25 years. despite the public drubbing it took last year, (and odd how the NHTSA's recent findings were nowhere near as widely publicized by the press) Toyota's quality system is still considered the gold standard and emulated worldwide.
buyers looking at a new 4Runner aren't asking themselves, "it's nice, but is it going to last?" because they don't have to. it's a stark contrast with the same inner monologue played out at a Jeep dealer, because that's the way it is. people will compare feature-by-feature, but when it comes to Toyota, the question of quality is simply off the table.
yes, yes, yen -v- USD, decontenting, blah, blah... those are real things, sure, but if you think that Toyota hit the "sloppy switch" on the 2010 4Runner assembly line because of the currency exchange—and that if the USD/yen ratio improves they'll return it to the "quality setting"—well, that's just bananas. yes, bananas.
your attitude about the 4th gen being the last "valuable" 4Runner is like a high school student chanting "Class of 2010 sucks! Class of 2008 ROCKS!!" they're both great vehicles borne of a storied history of great vehicles. and you do them both a disservice by presenting the 2011 JGC and 2010 4Runner as a parity choice.
#735 of 769 Re: Comfort challenged [pjc1]
Dec 01, 2010 (11:35 am)
Hmm, I play with the seat constantly trying to get comfortable in this new '11 4Runner SR5. I just can't see to find any setting that's good. Why? If the steering wheel dropped a little more, maybe it would be doable. So it's not me then, and I'm in Sales on the road. Looks like I'll trade it in for the new Durango or Ford Explorer which I was waiting for but just couldn't wait any longer. My last Toyota was a '90 4x4 reg cab p/u I bought new back then and need I say any more about horrible seating. My last vehicle was an '01 MDX of which there is no seating comparison! It was super! I went back and forth coparing Highlander to 4Runner and decided on this since I tow but why can't they get it right! I just can't tolerate horrible seating.
Dec 01, 2010 (11:54 am)
I am in sales too. I own an '05 Sport -V8-2WD. It's a great vehicle but I couldn't Imaging driving it every day in sales. We tow a 5,000 pound travel trailer. The 4Runner is on a truck frame, there is no getting around this.
I suspect there are more than just lousy seats causing your problems.
The MDX is a great vehicle with a uni body chassis and front (or all wheel?) drive.
It is NOTHING LIKE the 4Runner.
You would have been better off with the Highlander for every day driving, but it would not have met your towing requirements.
You can't have very thing. That Durango will ride like a truck as well.
#737 of 769 Re: New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports) [stateofmaine]
Dec 02, 2010 (7:30 am)
I never once said Toyota hit "the sloppy switch" regarding quality of the latest gen 4Runner. I actually said I believed quality would not change.
First you misrepresent a statement of an article I linked that you admitted turned out to be from another article entirely, then you misrepresented my direct words. What appeared to be a potentially intelligent conversation instead turned disappointing. Perhaps for others reading this thread it isn't difficult to see where the "bla, bla, bla" is really coming from.
#738 of 769 Re: New Jeep Grand Cherokee Betters New Toyota 4Runner (Consumer Reports) [tsu670]
Dec 10, 2010 (5:41 pm)
it goes without saying that "sloppy switch" was a colorful euphemism to describe your previously stated opinion that the 5th gen 4runner is a lesser vehicle than the 4th gen. i'm sorry if i misinterpreted statements like the following to mean that you were calling its quality into question:
"The 4Runner has always had high reliability and safety ratings, and one can reasonably hope Toyota didn't compromise on those factors in its decontenting of the latest version.
I, too, would be concerned about Chrysler reliability, especially on a 1st year production run of a new version. Might be worth waiting a year or two. Same goes for the 4Runner. The dollar/yen ratio might someday improve substantially."
honestly, when i read your words again, it's difficult for me to arrive at a different conclusion, but in any case, i did not "misrepresent [your] direct words". based on your saying above that you believe "quality would not change" it would seem that i misinterpreted them, though i would be surprised to learn that i was alone in that interpretation.
secondly, yes, i admitted that i mistakenly quoted a different article reporting the exact same Consumer Reports story (CR is behind a paywall; can't link to the story directly). again, there was no misrepresentation; i explained the error. having said that, the quote from the article i sourced was that CR could not recommend the new JGC due to its "lackluster reliability" — which is a fact no matter which article you happened to read. moreover, the spirit of the article i quoted was precisely the same as the one you originally linked to because, obviously, they were reporting the exact same CR test results. the differences are trivial and ultimately immaterial. further, the quote "The 4Runner doesn’t let you forget you’re driving a truck” is indeed from the article you linked to in your post.
please illuminate me as to how any of that amounts to "misrepresentation"? ... "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride.
i regret that you feel a "potentially intelligent conversation turned disappointing." i feel i've made some exceedingly cogent (if impassioned) points and, like anyone on the Internet, leave it to readers to separate the wheat from the chaff for themselves.
#739 of 769 Re: Good Choice [nothardly]
Jan 11, 2011 (8:15 pm)
I sold my 2004 4Runner Sport Edition (which I drove for 80K miles) and purchased a 2010 Limited - loaded w/ nav, premium sound, etc. I feel that the 2010 is a huge improvememt over the predecessor. The interior is roomier, instrumentation is laid out much better, is more driver friendly, and is much more comfortable..period!. It has plenty of power but is a bit more sluggish than the 04 (maybe from added weight?) but then again, it's an SUV not a sports car. The ride is extremely smooth and I do not hear any strange noises. I have read earlier complaints about the brake pedal, but my 04 did that too (as well as other vehicles that I've owned) & its barely noticeable. I love the exterior styling...it is much more aggressive looking. The only 2 complaints that I have are that the slide out cargo table is pretty much useless & just takes up space and I wish that the antenna was built in like on earlier models. Otherwise, I love it! 12,000 miles driven so far.