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BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?

429 messages,  Last post on Sep 16, 2011 at 1:33 PM

You are in the BMW 3-Series Forum.

What is this discussion about? BMW 3 Series, Sedan, Wagon

Messages Page 17 of 43

#159 of 429 Re: fedlawman [roadburner] by shipo

Oct 12, 2007 (9:21 pm)

Uh-oh, I see DTM plates. In New Jersey that's a dead give away that the car is owned by the manufacturer. Having worked for a few years in the mid 1990s for MB-USA, I couldn't turn around without seen several DTMs. Then after I left MB, my wife and I built a house on Glen Road in Woodcliff Lake, and if you are familiar with the area you'll know that BMW-USA is located at the corner of Chestnut Ridge Road and Glen Road, right down the street from our house. Yup, you guessed it, more DTM plates. Yeesh!
 
Best Regards,
Shipo

#160 of 429 Re: fedlawman [shipo] by roadburner

Oct 12, 2007 (9:32 pm)

Replying to: shipo (Oct 12, 2007 9:21 pm)
I compared the plates and discovered that this was the same B7 that Car and Driver tested. I seriously doubt that I beat on it as hard as they did- although I did discover that the Service Information System thinks that three 30 minute track sessions are equivalent to 900 miles of normal driving- at least with regards to oil life...

#161 of 429 Re: fedlawman [roadburner] by fedlawman

Oct 12, 2007 (10:35 pm)

Replying to: roadburner (Oct 12, 2007 9:20 pm)
This was the year I should have gone to O'Fest, and I didn't. Looks like you had a great time! I assume you're writing a story about O-Fest?
 
That's a very nice looking Warsteiner E30 M3 replica (I assume it's a replica). It doesn't look like MJ Calabrese's car, do you know anything about it?
 
I remember seeing the same TC Kline Carbon Coupe at TechFest. My car was on display in the hotel - parked 5 cars away.
 

#162 of 429 AWD vs. RWD by spiritinthesky

Oct 13, 2007 (5:42 am)

That car is stunning, and will out perform almost anything compared to it. I also drove the C4S/C2S extensively, and felt as if the C4 was faster from a stand still.... Although my track car is a RWD setup, its hard for me to bash awd cars,.... and have much more neutral driving characteristics of old. If I am lapping the Nordschleife, put me in an AWD supercar any day of the week,
 
As an owner of a 2007 911TT, I sincerely appreciate your compliments and enthusiasm for the car. For the majority of prospective buyers out there, it is indeed the "ultimate" 911. I have absolutely no purchase regrets. However, in looking for the best of all worlds - power, nimbleness and handling, I have placed myself second in line (behind the owner of the dealership) to get a GT2, which is essentially everything the 911 TT is, without the weight and bulk of AWD.
 
In the case of the GT2 vs. 911TT, my preference for RWD over AWD is almost strictly handling based. The lighter weight and different mechanical setups makes RWD my strong preference, all other things being equal.
 
However, in the C2S vs. C4S, both of which I seriously considered and extensively test drove before getting the TT, I don't understand how you could have concluded that the "4" was quicker off the line than the "2". There is nearly a 5% additional drivetrain loss of power in the 4, as has been documented in dyno tests. And the added weight of AWD extracts a noticably bigger penalty with "only" 295 ft-lbs of torque, compared to the TT's 500. I am quite certain that a 325 hp base C2 will give a 355hp C4S serious competition "off the line". The C2S is, in reality, considerably quicker, in addition to being nimbler. These facts are not reflected in Porsche's published performance data. Both the C2S and C4S are listed at 4.6 seconds 0-60. However, in Porsche's convenient way of conservative marketing, the C2S has been road tested as quick as 3.9 seconds and is damn near as quick as my friend's 996TT. The C4S, while still very competent, is simply not in that league, "off the line". The advantage of the "4", at least in the vastly improved 997 model, is strictly in poor traction (rain, snow, gravel) conditions.
 
As far as Nordschleife or Nurburgring, does it surprise you that the RWD 997 GT2 has surpassed the $450k V10 AWD Carrera GT in lap times? Or that the 415 hp RWD GT3 easily surpassed the 480hp AWD Turbo? Had it not been for the introduction of the GT2, I was seriously considering getting a GT3 after having the opportunity to drive that beauty. The handling is exquisite and I hate to admit how bulky my TT felt by comparison after an hour in a GT3. With the PASM set on normal mode, it didn't even rattle my fillings loose, like the 996 GT3 did a few years ago.
 
Again, I appreciate your compliments and enthusiasm for the 911TT, and it is an exceptional car. But, frankly, it deserves much of the accolades heaped on it in spite of being a heavier AWD setup, rather than because of it.
 
The "truly dedicated" award in the 911 line goes to the RWD GT3 and the ultimate performance goes to the RWD GT2.
 
From your lips to my wallet.
 
P.S. I apologize for the lengthy digression into the world of the 911, when the forum is supposed to be about the 335i vs. 335ix. I have only ever driven my nephew's 335i (sport package). I cannot comment upon the 335ix, other than to say, the laws of physics still apply. Weight is weight, and drive train efficiency is always reduced when you add more moving parts and connections to the system. Suspension and wheel/tire differences also need to be considered. That said, if someone prefers the road surface versitility of AWD over the performance and handling of RWD in a sport sedan, so be it. Either way, these are two very impressive cars.

#163 of 429 spiritinthesky by getz

Oct 13, 2007 (8:34 am)

I agree generally with all your points, however, I embrace the fact that I will never, ever, be in the same league as the likes of Walther Röhrl. So with my average ability, I will almost always lap an comparably powered awd vehicle faster than a rwd vehicle. I tested both the c4/c2 on backroads of occasionally less then ideal surfacing, and to my butt dyno the traction of the awd overcame the 200 lbs of extra weight. As I live in the northwest, the saved winter headaches of having awd more then makes up for the addition of 200 lbs. Regarding the GT3, it is undoubtedtly sweet, and available in lime green to boot, enjoy.
-Getz

#164 of 429 AWD Gaining Popularity - 335xi the Best by circlew

Oct 13, 2007 (10:06 am)

Popularity of AWD cars revs up
 
Royal Ford, Globe Staff
September 12, 2007
 
One is an American luxury sedan long associated with rear-wheel-drive muscle, the second is a zippy descendant of the German "people's car," and the third has a minivan's utility with performance that surpasses some sports cars. But the Lincoln MKZ, the Volkswagen Passat, and the Mazda CX-7 have something crucial in common: They are all available with all-wheel-drive.
AWD passenger cars are becoming increasingly popular with drivers who want improved safety without the added weight and - usually unnecessary - off-road capabilities of a SUV. With AWD, four wheels are in full play, as opposed to just a pair. That means critical electronic safety systems, which transmit power and braking to individual wheels, have more ways to correct for driver error or sudden changes in road conditions.
Automobile industry studies have shown that cars with electronic safety systems - such as antilock brakes, electronic stability control, traction control, and antirollover protection, - are more than 40 percent less likely to be involved in an accident. And if a crash does occur, the systems cut the death rate by more than 40 percent. Although studies incorporating AWD have not been done yet, it is likely that the systems will further reduce fatalities.
In 1985, Audi and Subaru were the only mainstream manufacturers selling all-wheel-drive passenger car models, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. Ten years later, the number of all-wheel-drive models reached 50. This year, there will be 86, according to the automotive website Edmunds.com, and the market is expected to continue to expand.
George Kang, a senior analyst for Edmunds.com, said consumers have come to see all-wheel-drive as a safety feature that offers "all weather, not necessarily all-terrain performance."
An AWD system adds about $1,500-$2,000 to the price of a car. It is standard on Subarus and most Audis. But as more companies develop or adopt AWD systems, the cost will drop, Kang said, and AWD will increasingly be made available in midrange and economy models. As a result, many car buyers who drove SUVs because of the security they offer in bad weather, will have more lighter choices at lower prices.
Travis Hanson, an instructor at New Hampshire's Team O'Neill Rally School, said Subaru has set a standard in low-cost AWD because all of its cars share "almost the exact same drive line," whether they are basic or deluxe models.
Although it doesn't sell low-cost cars, Mercedes-Benz has been a recent leader in promoting the widespread use of AWD. Six years ago, the German automaker said it would make AWD available in virtually all of its models.
In the Northeast and other parts of the country where snow and ice can make driving an endurance test, AWD's popularity is soaring among Mercedes owners. Today, about three-quarters of Mercedes sold in the Northeast come with AWD. The company's C280 passenger car leads the pack, with 96 percent of its current models selling here as AWD.
"We are in the fortunate position to be courting this niche for a long time," said Bernhard Glaser, the Mercedes-Benz general manager of product development. "But we are not surprised to see the competition trying to catch up."
Multiple AWD offerings are also on the market from Infiniti, Lexus, Ford, General Motors, Saab, Chrysler, BMW, Subaru, Audi, Volvo, and Volkswagen. Acura, Mazda, and Porsche each offer a single AWD model.
While older four-wheel-drive systems used all wheels continuously - and thus more gas - today's AWD systems send power to all four wheels only as needed, making them more fuel efficient. Kang said AWD typically reduces fuel economy by "about a mile per gallon," a cost he called "very acceptable in the consumers' eyes." Some models, however, can reduce fuel efficiency by up to 4 miles per gallon.
Part of the reason for better gas mileage is the newer systems' reduced weight. For example, the Mercedes-Benz flagship S-Class has incorporated its AWD system into the transmission, meaning it adds only 75 pounds to the vehicle's weight as opposed to 200 for its predecessor. The Lexus IS 250 AWD and Infiniti G35X each weigh only about 200 pounds more than the same models without AWD.
In Boston Globe testing in recent years, AWD passenger cars - at costs ranging from less than $30,000 to more than $125,000 - have been pushed sideways on ice and wet gravel without breaking free, hurtled across sand at more than 175 miles per hour, and pushed through a foot of unplowed snow on hilly terrain.
"We developed it with the thinking we would put it into other brands and tune it," said Peter Johansson, a Saab specialist in front- and all-wheel-drive technology.
He said the company didn't want to limit AWD to only its most expensive models. For instance, Johansson said, General Motors Corp., Saab's parent company, could easily use the Saab system in GM cars.
And it may soon have to for competitive reasons. Kang said consumers are beginning to expect AWD to be available as an option when they go car shopping.
The relatively modest cost of increased safety and performance is "a lot of bang for the buck," he said.
 
Most people do not want a set of snow tires and wheels! I would rate the 335xi as the best choice in the market at this time in the ELLPS category. Period.
  
 
Regards,
OW

#165 of 429 Re: awd [fedlawman] by xeye

Oct 13, 2007 (10:47 am)

Replying to: fedlawman (Oct 12, 2007 6:46 pm)
Responding to post 153:
 
Actually, that's not true. Here's an excerpt from an April 2006 article about extreme weather testing of the x-drive. I've provided the link for further reading.
 
"Another notable feature of the system is its ability to shift power from side-to-side. This was demonstrated by situating a vehicle so that wheels on one side were on glare ice, and wheels on the other side were on dry asphalt (the manoeuvre was made more difficult by starting on a steep incline). The power distribution at each axle is then forced to the side of the vehicle with traction (dry side) via brake intervention at the slipping wheels, as directed by the xDrive/DSC system. The result was that the vehicle was able to move forward with power only available to one side."
 
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/xdrive.htm
 
I do find it interesting that the fastest production car to date (off the line and top speed), the Bugatti Veyron, is AWD. So are some of the best handling Porsches and Lamborghini's. Now why on earth would the world's most advanced car makers develop such amazing cars if they were secondary in every respect, according to some recent posts, to cars they had already produced so successfully for so many years?
 
Don't even try to tell me it's because the buying public wanted a 200 mph sports car that could go get groceries in the dead of winter.
 
I wonder…what could they possibly have been thinking? Curious how Audi ran away with Pike's Peak championships to the point where other racers complained that Audi had an "unfair advantage"!
 
Kudos to you, OW. I read that Globe article, too. There's no denying that AWD is an unquestionable benefit in all conditions. RWD may be destined to go the way of leaded gas.

#166 of 429 Re: awd [xeye] by circlew

Oct 13, 2007 (1:30 pm)

Replying to: xeye (Oct 13, 2007 10:47 am)
xi, thanks for the kind words!
 
I was going to bring up the Bugati V but I did not want to bring that AWD point into the fray since the SSC Ultimate Aero is RWD.
 
At the end of the day, you drive what works for you. The xi works for me. Period, the end. On the track days I agree the challenge/fun is with RWD. I would have a hard time deciding on which 911 to buy but no problem with an ELLPS choice!.
 
I need no such challenges in commuter traffic or when the weather turns nasty!
 
Regards,
OW

#167 of 429 Re: awd [xeye] by fedlawman

Oct 13, 2007 (1:48 pm)

Replying to: xeye (Oct 13, 2007 10:47 am)
Actually Xeye, it is true. Read the excerpt again...
 
"The power distribution at each axle is then forced to the side of the vehicle with traction via brake intervention at the slipping wheels"
 
X-Drive transfers power front-to-back only.

#168 of 429 Re: awd [fedlawman] by circlew

Oct 13, 2007 (2:15 pm)

Replying to: fedlawman (Oct 13, 2007 1:48 pm)
X-Drive transfers power front-to-back only.
 
For now...but not for long...
 
Already, the system is integrated into the optional active steering technology available on its vehicles, and in the future, the company's goal of full-scale integration will be realized in its Integrated Chassis Management (ICM) technology, designed to control the longitudinal, latitudinal and vertical dynamics of a vehicle at the same time. The experience at Arjeplog suggests that this goal is close to realization.

I just love technology and I have great respect to the advanced drivers of the world, such as yourself that have taken the time and enjoyed the experience...there just aren't that many of you that I meet on the road. As the advancements get into our future cars, I hope the fun is not lost!

Regards,
OW

Messages Page 17 of 43

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