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Aug 09, 2006 (12:16 pm)
Ethanol is the real deal. It will do just fine. That's as long as you don't want to ever eat again.
BTW, what hasn't received much coverage is that the world's second largest oil field, Cantarell in Mexico, is entering a rather spectacular decline. Its production is down by around 7 to 8% from last year and the drop is expected to get steeper over the next year (that's the nature of these maximum contact horizontal wells).
Mexico is our second biggest source of petroleum. And a further crimp on Mexican petroleum exports is that internal consumption is on the rise.
So as an alternative for a renewable resource I'm going to suggest whale blubber. You can burn it, you can eat it, and it even makes a great skin moisturizer.
#9 of 1067 Re: The Inconvinient Truth About Ethanol [chewym]
Aug 15, 2006 (11:06 am)
This article is typical misinformation put out by special interest. Some examples, the corn yield hasn't been that low since the mid 1990's see http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/cornyld.htm , a test recently run by an external lab showed almost no difference in fuel efficiency at 10% ethanol see http://www.ethanol.org/PressRelease8.24.05.htm and if it cost so much energy to produce the product the ethanol plants wouldn't be making profits way above the subsidies. I think the subsidies should be removed and let free market take place. Unfortunately free market is just a pipe dream as the large lobbyist such as the oil companies usually rule the market. See Who killed the electric car.
#10 of 1067 Re: The Inconvinient Truth About Ethanol [gypsy_tech]
Aug 16, 2006 (9:45 am)
I think the subsidies should be removed and let free market take place.
The US government not only hands out $.51 per gallon to the producers. They guarantee the price of corn to the farmer. Plus the biggest gamble is they guarantee the loans on the ethanol plants. We were on the hook for the 90 ethanol plants that were dismantled during the last go around with ethanol. ADM has nothing to lose and millions to gain. We are paying the price with little or nothing to show for it. I can make a profit on anything if the government builds the factory and makes sure I get as much as I want for the product.
Do you think I trust ethanol.org to give an accurate mileage on E10? NO!!!
#11 of 1067 Re: The Inconvinient Truth About Ethanol [gagrice]
Aug 19, 2006 (8:11 am)
There are many places that proclaim E10 gets 97% the mileage of E0.
#12 of 1067 Need help understanding E85
Mar 26, 2007 (12:15 pm)
I thought of myself as a relatively intelligent person until I read today's CNN article regarding the President meeting with the Detroit 2.5 (GM, Ford and DC) about E85. The Big 2.5 is touting this as the way to reduce US dependency on foreign oil for security and environmental reasons. I'm sorry but everything I have read says E85 fuel give 25-33% LESS fuel economy then regular gas. the only reason the big 2.5 uses it is they receive a huge "credit" toward the CAFE standards, which makes no sense. Also it smells like this is the "cheapest" way they can accomplish more fuel efficient engines is through the use of this bogus technology. I guess that hybrid technology just isn't panning out the way it should for them.
Maybe I am misreading something but please somebody explain this to me!!!
#13 of 1067 Re: Need help understanding E85 [dtownfb]
Mar 26, 2007 (12:34 pm)
I think you got E85 figured out quite well. It is a smokescreen for the automakers to circumvent the CAFE regulations and corporate welfare for big farmers and ethanol producers. It is pork barrel politics at its finest.
#14 of 1067 You've got it right
Mar 31, 2007 (11:07 am)
And in addition to paying the producers 51 cents a gallon in subsidy they are also charging a tariff of 53 cent per gallon on imported sugar cane ethanol. Yes, that means they are giving the corn lobby a $1.04 price advantage for nothing.
I'd be much happier with diesel or at least with importing ethanol from Brazil rather than oil from the Middle East, Russia, Venezuela, Nigeria and all our other "pals."
#15 of 1067 Ethanol isnt doom and gloom
Apr 16, 2007 (8:42 am)
I get the feeling that most people think that Ethanol is just a terrible thing. I ask you the question, how can you say that this is a terrible alternative in the short term to our age old plan of burning dirty non-renewable fossil fuels, mostly coming from the worst part of this world. Why not step up and embrace something that is RENEWABLE and made right here in the USA. I have been burning E85 in my 07 Silverado LT2, have been achieving 14 mpg on the highway.
Also, even though the Govt is giving out the .51 subsidy, new ethanol plants can produce 3 gallons of ethanol to 1 bushel of corn. Currently on the CBOT, ethanol is trading at $2.13 a gallon, Corn is currently at $3.75, so do the math, even without the subsidy, the break even on just the ethanol sales is $6.39. That does not include the added revenue brought on by the sale of the ethanol byproduct DDG's, which is a very popular cattle feed stock. I know this is not the long term solution to the energy problem, can easily be seen that Hydrogen is the long term solution. But why not embrace a cleaner, renewable, domestic made fuel that can put a dent in all the gasoline consumption, just seems like a no-brainer to me. Also this DOES support American farmers, go look at all the commodity markets compared to a year ago, most of them are up 50-75% compared to one year ago, this is due to one thing ETHANOL. And complaining about higher food prices, I geuss if this nation wants to have the cheapest food in the world as it does today, so be it, but I will pay a little more in the grocery stores, Heck if we can buy these new cars, we can afford to spend a lil more in the checkout line. Ethanol gets a black eye for no reason I think. With farmers burning bio-diesel in the farm equipment used to produce the corn, turns into a bio-fuels circle. Good deal in my mind, tell the Arabs to keep their oil over there!
#16 of 1067 Re: Ethanol isnt doom and gloom [nascar57]
Apr 16, 2007 (5:53 pm)
I am not sure where to start other than welcome to the Forum.
If you have a ready supply of E85, I say go for it. You are taking a 27% hit in mileage according to the new EPA ratings. That means when regular unleaded is selling for $3 per gallon you would need to get E85 for $2.19 to break even. That is just the economics for you as an individual. You have left out the cost in fossil fuel to grow that bushel of corn for ethanol. The most optimistic studies are somewhere around a 20% positive gain. Or for every 8/10ths of a gallon of fossil fuel you get one gallon of ethanol. Then you burn it in your vehicle at a 27% loss and you can see you are in negative territory. So much for economics.
Now to the environment. Growing corn the way it is done to get the highest yield per acre is killing the Gulf of Mexico. Google the Dead Zone and read about what all the fertilizer run-off is doing. The Union of Concerned Scientists are not on the side of ethanol. One of the biggest problems is the vehicles you and I choose to drive. Here is where the dirty little secrets about ethanol come into play. GM builds a PU truck and equips it to burn E85. Sounds eco friendly right? Wrong, they only did that to get a higher CAFE rating. That gets the automaker off the hook on building more economical vehicles. If we were interested in ethanol as an alternative and not just more PORK, we would have pulled the 53 cent tariff off of Brazilian ethanol. Ethanol can be made from sugar cane without big subsidies.
My last big gripe about ethanol is the fact that it was forced onto the whole USA. It has to be trucked to CA, WA & OR at a very high cost per gallon to be mixed with our designer gas. Making us pay the highest gas prices in the nation, aside from Hawaii.
To a school child ethanol looks like a great idea, because they are only told part of the story. None of the infrastructure we are now building will be usable when they figure out how to make ethanol from waste products. So we will buy the plants twice to satisfy the constituencies in the Mid West. Making Verasun, ADM and the mega-ag corporations very wealthy with no risk. We are taking all the risk for them.
Ethanol Dirty Secrets
Apr 17, 2007 (7:50 am)
You anti-ethanol people simply cease to amaze me. Yes, corn is obviously not the most efficient form of making ethanol, but it does create more energy than it takes to make. The talk about fertilizer is pretty mute, farming is always going to be there and fertilizer is used on all crops, NOT just corn. I am a senior in Agricultural Economics at a State University. One CANT say that this is not good for our domestic economy. Yes, switchgrass (Biomass) ethanol is on its way, but corn is the current source, I dont think we should turn our backs on it. And also for the price difference, I have figured with my personal vehicle if, E85 is 50 cents a gallon cheaper, it pays to run ethanol. Calculate it down to a per mile basis and this is the figure that I have come up with for my individual vehicle. Plus your not burning DIRTY, NONRENEWABLE fossil fuels. Nothing is going to be as cheap as pumping stuff out of the ground, but if you think that we should rely only on that, you are a complete idiot and 70 dollar oil will seem cheap if alternative sources on not brought in before demand outstrips supply on fossil fuels.