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The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol

1067 messages,  Last post on May 04, 2013 at 2:12 PM

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What is this discussion about? Alternative Fuels

Messages Page 2 of 108

#4 of 1067 Ethanol E85 by lurge_taxa

Aug 05, 2006 (12:00 pm)

I was wondering instead of having a E85 mix of ethanol and gasoline that, if it is possible to use 15 percent fuel as
hydrogen peroxide mixed with 85 percent ethanol. I know that these two combinations are soluble, but i wonder how the combustion would be like. If anybody knows something of these
mix, please feel free to answer them or if you guys have an opinion on it feel free to answer any way.

#5 of 1067 Re: Ethanol E85 [lurge_taxa] by john500

Aug 06, 2006 (9:48 am)

Replying to: lurge_taxa (Aug 05, 2006 12:00 pm)
Interesting idea, but here are my thoughts:
 
Advantages:
Lots of energy in the fuel
 
Concerns:
1. Is it too much energy for the engine to handle and will there be storage stability problems?
2. Cost. H2O2 is generally made using hydrogen and then distilled if a high purity material (doesn't contain water) is needed. What is the cost per gallon?
3. Corrosivity/reactivity of the peroxide with the fuel tank/lines/engine

#6 of 1067 Ethanol Mileage Drop by midnightcowboy

Aug 07, 2006 (1:46 pm)

I have notice a 2-3 MPG drop in mileage since the gas stations forced to change to Ethanol.
 
YMMV,
 
MidCow

#7 of 1067 Re: Ethanol Mileage Drop [midnightcowboy] by markcincinnati

Aug 09, 2006 (7:46 am)

Replying to: midnightcowboy (Aug 07, 2006 1:46 pm)
You must mean E10. E10 will go about 97% as far as E0.
 
If you are used to 30MPG's, it would be easy to have a drop of 1MPG under IDEAL conditions, 2MPG would certainly not be atypical.
 
My congresswoman still thinks this E85 stuff represents "salvation."
 
I want this to be true -- it just isn't so.
 
However, with diesel we could stop importing from SA -- IF, 30% of the cars were diesel powered and equivalent "power" and cost of their gas engined counterparts.
 
The BMW 3 series diesel if imported to the US and if it were priced at a $1,200 premium over the 330i gas version would pay for itself in a bit over 35,000 miles and from then on would start to have a TCO that would be lower for the diesel than for the gas version.
 
Performance (acceleration), in this example, between the gas and diesel versions are very close due to the diesel's weapons grade torque. The mileage however exceeds a 40% improvement.
 
Check out the review in the new C&D.
 
Audi, too, produces some of the best diesels in the world -- with Audi, BMW and Mercedes engineering muscle and perhaps a diesel/electric hybrid, we would really make some progress in energy independence.
 
The effect, too, would be lower greehouse gasses and we could buy time to perfect either newer and/or different and better technologies or improve our ability to get at the world's largest oil reserves (800 billion bbls.) that just happen to be in Colorado, et al.
 
The talk on the T and V this week is "$4" gasoline. What's it gonna take $5/gallon to work on a mature and ever improving technology and put it under the hoods of American's cars?
 
Yeah, $5/gallon, sustained for months and months and months would probably "get our attention."
 
At the momemnt Ethanol and E85 are simply false promises.
 
Yet, even believing that, I also believe we need to work on creating fuel that we can renew and renew and renew. Bio-diesel made from soybeans makes more sense from a fuel standpoint, an economy standpoint and a FARMING and FOOD standpoint (something that seems to be ignored in all of this Ethanol noise.)

#8 of 1067 Hey, Mr A6... by byronwalter

Aug 09, 2006 (12:16 pm)

Replying to: markcincinnati (Aug 09, 2006 7:46 am)
Ethanol is the real deal. It will do just fine. That's as long as you don't want to ever eat again.
 
BTW, what hasn't received much coverage is that the world's second largest oil field, Cantarell in Mexico, is entering a rather spectacular decline. Its production is down by around 7 to 8% from last year and the drop is expected to get steeper over the next year (that's the nature of these maximum contact horizontal wells).
 
Mexico is our second biggest source of petroleum. And a further crimp on Mexican petroleum exports is that internal consumption is on the rise.
 
So as an alternative for a renewable resource I'm going to suggest whale blubber. You can burn it, you can eat it, and it even makes a great skin moisturizer.

#9 of 1067 Re: The Inconvinient Truth About Ethanol [chewym] by gypsy_tech

Aug 15, 2006 (11:06 am)

Replying to: chewym (Jun 22, 2006 6:59 pm)
This article is typical misinformation put out by special interest. Some examples, the corn yield hasn't been that low since the mid 1990's see http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/cornyld.htm , a test recently run by an external lab showed almost no difference in fuel efficiency at 10% ethanol see http://www.ethanol.org/PressRelease8.24.05.htm and if it cost so much energy to produce the product the ethanol plants wouldn't be making profits way above the subsidies. I think the subsidies should be removed and let free market take place. Unfortunately free market is just a pipe dream as the large lobbyist such as the oil companies usually rule the market. See Who killed the electric car.

#10 of 1067 Re: The Inconvinient Truth About Ethanol [gypsy_tech] by gagrice

Aug 16, 2006 (9:45 am)

Replying to: gypsy_tech (Aug 15, 2006 11:06 am)
I think the subsidies should be removed and let free market take place.
 
The US government not only hands out $.51 per gallon to the producers. They guarantee the price of corn to the farmer. Plus the biggest gamble is they guarantee the loans on the ethanol plants. We were on the hook for the 90 ethanol plants that were dismantled during the last go around with ethanol. ADM has nothing to lose and millions to gain. We are paying the price with little or nothing to show for it. I can make a profit on anything if the government builds the factory and makes sure I get as much as I want for the product.
 
Do you think I trust ethanol.org to give an accurate mileage on E10? NO!!!

#11 of 1067 Re: The Inconvinient Truth About Ethanol [gagrice] by markcincinnati

Aug 19, 2006 (8:11 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Aug 16, 2006 9:45 am)
There are many places that proclaim E10 gets 97% the mileage of E0.

#12 of 1067 Need help understanding E85 by dtownfb

Mar 26, 2007 (12:15 pm)

I thought of myself as a relatively intelligent person until I read today's CNN article regarding the President meeting with the Detroit 2.5 (GM, Ford and DC) about E85. The Big 2.5 is touting this as the way to reduce US dependency on foreign oil for security and environmental reasons. I'm sorry but everything I have read says E85 fuel give 25-33% LESS fuel economy then regular gas. the only reason the big 2.5 uses it is they receive a huge "credit" toward the CAFE standards, which makes no sense. Also it smells like this is the "cheapest" way they can accomplish more fuel efficient engines is through the use of this bogus technology. I guess that hybrid technology just isn't panning out the way it should for them.
 
Maybe I am misreading something but please somebody explain this to me!!!

#13 of 1067 Re: Need help understanding E85 [dtownfb] by gagrice

Mar 26, 2007 (12:34 pm)

Replying to: dtownfb (Mar 26, 2007 12:15 pm)
I think you got E85 figured out quite well. It is a smokescreen for the automakers to circumvent the CAFE regulations and corporate welfare for big farmers and ethanol producers. It is pork barrel politics at its finest.

Messages Page 2 of 108

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