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The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol

1067 messages,  Last post on May 04, 2013 at 2:12 PM

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Messages Page 107 of 107

#1059 of 1067 Re: From Mr Inconvenient Truth himself [berri] by gagrice

Nov 18, 2012 (9:35 pm)

Replying to: berri (Nov 18, 2012 8:45 pm)
that agency is run by zealots that are out of control and devoid of impartiality or common sense.
 
Many congress people in the Midwest are owned by the big ag lobbyist.

#1060 of 1067 AAA jumps into defend US from E15 by gagrice

Nov 30, 2012 (1:00 pm)

AAA urges EPA to halt approval of E15 for vehicles

Washington — AAA, the nation's largest travel organization, on Friday urged the Obama administration to halt the sale of E15 — a new fuel with a higher blend of ethanol — because of possible engine damage to most vehicles on the nation's roads.
 
With little consumer understanding of E15 and less than five percent of cars on the road approved by automakers to use the fuel, "AAA is urging regulators and the industry to stop the sale of E15 until motorists are better protected."
 
AAA said just 12 million out of the more than 240 million light-duty vehicles on the roads today are approved by manufacturers to use E15 gasoline, based on a survey conducted by AAA of auto manufacturers.
 
General Motors Co. and Ford Motor Co. have approved the use of the fuel for new model vehicles only. Chrysler Group LLC said this week it still doesn't approve the use of E15 for any of its vehicles.
 
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121130/AUTO01/211300415/AAA-urges-EPA-halt-- approval-E15-vehicles?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
 
Not to mention lower mileage with more ethanol content.

#1061 of 1067 Re: AAA jumps into defend US from E15 [gagrice] by gogogodzilla

Nov 30, 2012 (8:19 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Nov 30, 2012 1:00 pm)
Don't worry, the EPA will still push this, for the good of the planet.
 
And that's what's really important, you know.
 
We should be willing to bear any burden, carry any cost to ensure that our Mother Earth is free from the ravages of man-made pollution.
 
Praise our glorious mother!
 
 

#1062 of 1067 Just say NO to E15 by gagrice

Jan 31, 2013 (9:42 am)

Study: New E15 gas can ruin auto engines
 
This week's warm Washington temperatures had some thinking about rolling the Lawn-Boy out of the garage for the first cut of the year. And we all know what that means: Difficult starts due to E10 gas that gels when it sits.
 
Now, according to a new study, cars and truck may face the same fate thanks to President Obama's demand for a higher ethanol in the new E15 gas.
 
The fuel industry's American Petroleum Institute tested the 15 percent ethanol gas approved in 2010 and found it gums up fuel systems, prompts "check engine" lights to come on, and messes with fuel gauge readings.
 
http://washingtonexaminer.com/study-new-e15-gas-can-ruin-auto-engines/article/25- 20078

#1063 of 1067 And Now E30? by hpmctorque

May 04, 2013 (6:27 am)

Were we wrong about ethanol? From yesterday's New York Times...
 
Greentech Squeezing More From Ethanol
 
By MATTHEW L. WALD
Published: May 3, 2013
  
"WASHINGTON — Faced with a crop of lemons — too much ethanol, a population of cars not tuned to burn it effectively and a driving public leery of the fuel’s properties — the Environmental Protection Agency is proposing to make lemonade.
  
ADVOCATE C. Boyden Gray sees benefits in E30 gasoline blends. The effort to untangle itself from this sticky situation is part of a larger proposal by the federal government to make the most sweeping changes in gasoline since lead additives were banned.
 
Tucked inside the E.P.A.’s March announcement of a plan to cut the amount of sulfur allowed in gasoline was an audacious suggestion that sought to solve all three ethanol challenges at once. The proposal, for a fuel that is 30 percent ethanol, could reduce tailpipe emissions and improve fuel economy — and even encourage drivers to use more ethanol.
 
'You make the dog like the dog food," said William H. Woebkenberg, senior engineer for fuels policy in the United States at Mercedes-Benz.
 
The idea is that while today’s typical pump blend — E10, which is 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline — has drawbacks, a blend of 30 percent ethanol and 70 percent gasoline could take advantage of ethanol’s strengths. Unlike a flexible-fuel vehicle that can use E85 formulations but offers little financial or performance benefit, an engine tuned specifically for E30 would perform better on that fuel than on the standard E10, creating a market incentive.
 
The idea has widespread support among technical experts.
 
It also has another appealing aspect: current ethanol policy is probably unsustainable, because Congress has ordered the oil companies to use ever-larger amounts of ethanol. To comply with the mandate, ethanol levels would have to exceed 10 percent of each gallon of fuel, yet many automakers advise against using higher concentrations unless the car is equipped for it. With a declining demand for gasoline, the problem becomes more acute.
 
The 30 percent idea is laid out deep in the 938-page text of the proposed Tier 3 rule, which would lower the amount of sulfur in gasoline by two-thirds, to the level required in California. In the proposal, the E.P.A. asked automakers to comment on E30.
 
Like other efforts to introduce new fuels, it would require big investments at gas stations for blending pumps and storage tanks.
 
Still, there is a powerful incentive in the E.P.A. plan: offering automakers the option of having their cars certified on E30. Before a new car can be sold in the United States, the company must submit data on the vehicle’s pollution output and fuel economy to the E.P.A. Certifying with E30 would call for engines optimized to take advantage of the blend’s octane rating of 93 or perhaps higher.
 
Using high-octane premium-grade gas in an engine that does not require it offers no benefit. But in engines designed to squeeze the fuel-air mixture to very high pressures before igniting it with the spark plug, high-octane fuel burns predictably and can produce more horsepower. (On the other hand, burning low-octane gas in an engine tuned for premium grade can cause erratic combustion, or knocking, and result in severe engine damage.)
 
Ethanol contains only about two-thirds as much energy as gasoline, gallon for gallon. But if it is burned in engines designed for high cylinder pressures, it will produce competitive horsepower.
 
In general, the oil companies have opposed using higher concentrations of ethanol. The oil industry is trying to get Congress to change federal rules so they can use less ethanol, not more.
 
But various engine and fuel experts like the idea, because the E.P.A. is inviting the auto companies to take advantage of the good characteristics of ethanol, including an octane rating that is well over 100.
 
'That’s getting smarter,' said Margaret Wooldridge, a professor of mechanical engineering at the University of Michigan. The way ethanol is used now, she said, if anybody does notice there’s any ethanol in the fuel, it’s always in a way that is negative.'
 
The trouble with the flexible fuel vehicles on the market now, which can run at blends of up to 85 percent ethanol, is that they are still mostly optimized for gasoline, not ethanol, she said. While there are millions of such vehicles on the road, they run mostly on E10 because that is a better bargain for the driver.
 
Higher concentrations are no better, and ethanol companies are struggling for acceptance of E15 with drivers, who show little enthusiasm. '15 is the answer to the question nobody asked,' said
Woebkenberg of Mercedes-Benz. 'It is a detriment.'
 
But an E30 blend in an engine designed to use that fuel would be attractive to car buyers, he said, 'with ridiculous power and good fuel economy,' and owners of those cars would seek out the fuel, unlike owners of flex-fuel cars.
 
'I hope that the E.P.A. agrees to do it,' said C. Boyden Gray, a former aide to President George H. W. Bush who is now a Washington lawyer representing energy clients. In coming years, Mr. Gray and others say, more cars are going to be engineered for high-octane fuel so they can get better fuel economy as automakers move to double economy, and high-octane fuel with 30 percent ethanol is cleaner than blends relying more heavily on gasoline.
 
But Mr. Gray and other experts said that the E.P.A. would probably have to do more than just give automakers the option to certify vehicles on E30; it would probably have to mandate its availability to give car shoppers confidence that they would be able to refuel such vehicles."

#1064 of 1067 Re: And Now E30? [hpmctorque] by steve_ HOST

May 04, 2013 (6:35 am)

Replying to: hpmctorque (May 04, 2013 6:27 am)
Just read that story with my morning coffee - makes sense to tune the engine to the predominant fuel, but we're going to wind up with stations blending six or eight different fuel types.
 
Maybe it'll wind up like McDonalds where you can mix your own soft drink flavor. Eight gallons of E10, two gallons of E30 and a splash of diesel for tartness.

#1065 of 1067 Re: And Now E30? [steve_] by hpmctorque

May 04, 2013 (7:01 am)

Replying to: steve_ (May 04, 2013 6:35 am)
That's scary. Also of concern, with all those different blends, is the increased vulnerability for mistakes. For example, there would be more opportunities for distributors to mistakenly putting E30 in E10 pumps, or some variation on that.
 
When you order a grande skim carmel cappucino at Starbucks, and you notice that the barrista gets it wrong, he/she apologizes with a smile and pours a new one for you. If E30 comes out of the pump that reads E10, how are you going to know before your car suffers damages? If E30 has higher octane, and your car's computer adjusts for it, you'd think you had a tiger in the tank, while the wrong blend ruins the critical rubber and plastic parts under your hood.
 
That said, the benefits of E30 mentioned in the NYT article sound very exciting. If true, E30, or some variation on it, could be a big net positive for motorists and our country alike. I look forward to reading more about it.

#1066 of 1067 Re: And Now E30? [hpmctorque] by gagrice

May 04, 2013 (11:33 am)

Replying to: hpmctorque (May 04, 2013 7:01 am)
If E30 comes out of the pump that reads E10, how are you going to know before your car suffers damages?
 
Simplist solution is to buy a diesel vehicle. On this trip I have only had one tank of gas that gave me 18 MPG. It was Shell gas bought in Arkansas. The rest are 16s. Not much better than than our CA crap designer gas. Have not seen any real gas all ethanol laced. I agree that mixing all the different formulas will be confusing and dangerous for the public. Still no scientific evidence that ethanol can be made using less energy than it takes to make it. Or that it is CO2 neutral. Plus the damage to the ecosystem dumping into the gulf. The only positive is the cash flow into the pockets of ADM and Monsanto.

#1067 of 1067 Re: And Now E30? [hpmctorque] by texases

May 04, 2013 (2:12 pm)

Replying to: hpmctorque (May 04, 2013 7:01 am)
That whole E30 idea only works with engines of higher compression ratio than can run E0 or E10. So now we'll have a fleet of cars INCOMPATIBLE with current fuel sources.
 
Folks don't like a bad idea (E10)? Then mandate a worse idea (E30).

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