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The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol

1067 messages,  Last post on May 04, 2013 at 2:12 PM

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Messages Page 103 of 108

#1016 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [galonga] by gagrice

Oct 30, 2010 (1:54 pm)

Replying to: galonga (Oct 30, 2010 1:21 pm)
So, again, it is NOT a problem of ethanol in general, ONLY US ETHANOL.
 
Time for a reality check. If the US were to adopt ethanol only cars as you say are in Brazil, we would be in worse shape. We cannot produce enough ethanol to keep up with the 3% mandate currently in place. If we took off the tariff and bought all of your ethanol it would not be enough to power 5% of our vehicles. Then you would have all those ethanol only cars and no ethanol. You should be happy we are not buying much of your ethanol.
 
There will NEVER be ethanol only cars sold in the USA. We don't want the mess you had following the last time ethanol was all the rage in the 1970s. We have had flex fuel vehicles sold in the USA for well over 20 years. And there are about a dozen stations in the whole state of CA that sell E85. Only ONE in San Diego County where I live. And it cost more than gas.
 
Another thing you leave out in your exuberance for ethanol is transportation. You cannot just stick it in a pipeline and get it to market. It all has to be shipped by expensive tanker trucks.
 
Plus the USA already produces nearly twice as much ethanol as Brazil. And that is not enough to meet our current mandate.
 
For the USA Ethanol is a GIANT SCAM.

#1017 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [gagrice] by galonga

Oct 30, 2010 (2:33 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Oct 30, 2010 1:54 pm)
Time for a reading check.
 
Brazil uses only 1,2% of its land for ethanol production, and it produces it from sugarcane, which yields 9 TIMES more energy than american corn.
 
So you can be sure there would be PLENTY of ethanol for america.
 
And there was no "mess" in the 1970 as you claim.
 
Time for a READING and LEARNING check.
 
And sorry if you consider it "exuberance". It is just HARD FACTS. Deal.

#1018 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [galonga] by gagrice

Oct 30, 2010 (4:03 pm)

Replying to: galonga (Oct 30, 2010 2:33 pm)
Brazil uses only 1,2% of its land for ethanol production, and it produces it from sugarcane, which yields 9 TIMES more energy than american corn.
  
So you can be sure there would be PLENTY of ethanol for america.
 
You would have to plant 37% of all the land in Brazil in sugar cane to produce enough for the vehicles in the USA. Of course we are not going to convert 244 million vehicles to run on ethanol so that is a moot point. I am not sure where you come up with 9 times more energy. A gallon of ethanol produces 76,100 btu/gal whether produced with sugar cane or corn or trees. gasoline is 114,000 btu/gal and diesel #2 produces 129,500 btu/gal. That means to get the same energy out of ethanol as gasoline you have to burn 1.5 gallons. I know you like the stuff and that is fine. I don't believe you have looked at the reality of ethanol as used in the USA. It is a political football. It is purely paybacks from our government to companies like ADM and the mega corn farmers. If the Federal Government really believed it would help our dependence from countries like Saudi Arabia, they would drop the tariff and buy all Brazil could produce. We still produce way more ethanol than Brazil even though it is NOT close to cost effective.
 
PS
The clearing of the rain forest and burning to prepare for growing crops is also environmentally BAD. It will take close to 100 years to mitigate the GHG produced during the clearing of the land for crop use.

#1019 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [galonga] by morin2

Oct 30, 2010 (7:27 pm)

Replying to: galonga (Oct 30, 2010 1:21 pm)
The lower mileage ethanol produces ONLY happens in FLEX FUEL cars.
 
That is just not true. Several of us have done the calculated MPG with E10 and pure gas and found the ethanol penalty in fuel economy is very real.

#1020 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [gagrice] by galonga

Oct 31, 2010 (2:16 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Oct 30, 2010 4:03 pm)
Sorry, but again you are talking without a proper knowledge of the facts
 
The rainforest regions in Brazil harbour a fungus called Mycovellosiella koepkei which inhibits growth: so it´s just pointless to even try to grow sugar cane in the amazon, as you get poor results.
 
Just like there´s another called "vassoura de bruxa" which affects cocoa plantations and only lived in Ecuador.
 
And on the 9 energy thing it´s a WIDELY known fact: google a little.
 
And let me remind you that FLEX ENGINES ARE NOT ETHANOL ENGINES. I DO NOT SUPPORT FLEX ENGINES for the energy reasons you point out.
 
I firmly believe that ethanol is a PROVEN solution and if instead of talking about mileage and other nonsense, if PROPERLY adopted (and not the way it is done) it will SAVE american lives.
 
And I say save because we all know those poor troopers went to Iraq to get more oil.

#1021 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [morin2] by galonga

Oct 31, 2010 (2:18 am)

Replying to: morin2 (Oct 30, 2010 7:27 pm)
No, you have NOT.
 
Ethanol requires an ENTIRELY different engine with specs you do NOT have.
 
You just compared it with the same compression ratio and spark timing, and of course got WRONG results.
 
Again: ethanol engines are NOT flex fuel engines.

#1022 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [galonga] by gagrice

Oct 31, 2010 (6:03 am)

Replying to: galonga (Oct 31, 2010 2:18 am)
Again: ethanol engines are NOT flex fuel engines.
 
You are flat out wrong on the subject. The Cars sold in Brazil ARE Flex Fuel.
 
Even Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva has gotten behind the flex-fuel concept, here driving GM's first factory-produced car that runs on gasoline, alcohol or natural gas.
 
SAO PAULO, Brazil — If it wasn’t for the TotalFlex logo on the new Gol subcompacts leaving a sprawling Volkswagen plant, the shiny cars would be indistinguishable from millions already on the road across Latin America.
 
But these Gols and other models produced by Fiat SpA and General Motors Corp. have modified engines that, given the rising price of oil, are making Brazilians smile at the gas pumps. They run on gasoline, alcohol or any combination of the two and now represent nearly 20 percent of the new cars sold in Brazil.
 
With alcohol — also called ethanol — cleaner and selling at half the price of gas in South America’s largest country, Brazilians who have bought 200,000 “flex-fuel” cars since their launch last year say deciding which fuel to use is a no-brainer.
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5829046/
 
March 8, 2010 in Ethanol
 
10 million FLEX FUEL cars sold in Brazil.
 
Almost all vehicles sold in Brazil are flex-fuel capable (up to 85% ethanol blends, E85) and some are even compatible with 100% ethanol (E100). Every gas station in the country sells E85 and almost all sell E100. This has all been accomplished without government subsidies. As the Brazilian sugarcane organization, UNICA, likes to boast, the industry is completely self sustaining at this point. I’ve written about all this in the past, but as a recap, Brazil’s ethanol success is documented in these statistics:
 
90% of all new automobiles sold are flex-fuel automobiles
100% of GM vehicles produced in Brazil are flex-fuel
 
http://gas2.org/2010/03/08/brazils-10-millionth-ethanol-flex-fuel-vehicle-hits-t- - he-road/
 
If you have any data that refutes the claim that Brazilian cars are Flex Fuel, feel free to post. So far all you have offered is your opinion. Which is fine as long as you can back it up with facts.

#1023 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [gagrice] by galonga

Oct 31, 2010 (6:23 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Oct 31, 2010 6:03 am)
As usual you are confusing things by throwing WRONG or UNRELATED data (like this case).
 
Brazil stopped selling PURE ethanol cars in 2007: 86% of the cars being sold today are FLEX and 0% are ethanol.
 
And that´s a HUGE mistake for the reasons I pointed out twice already.
 
That has NOTHING TO DO with ethanol engines being different and BETTER than the flex fuel crap that is available in Brazil and in the US today.
 
READ MORE: so far you´ve been beaten in all issued you raised

#1024 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [gagrice] by galonga

Oct 31, 2010 (6:28 am)

Replying to: gagrice (Oct 31, 2010 6:03 am)
Since it is obvious you have no idea the difference between a flex fuel and an ethanol ONLY car I will have to explain it, so you stop sending wrong or unrelated data.
 
Ethanol only cars CANNOT RUN ON GASOLINE. Their compression ratios are way too high for gasoline (14 to 1).
 
That ratio takes advantage of ethanol´s huge octane number (104), in order to give MORE POWER.
 
On the other hand, flex fuel cars CAN run on gasoline because their compression ratios respect gasoline (9 to 1)
 
You CANNOT purchase an ethanol car in the US: they do not exist
 
In Brazil they were made until 2007 and now only flex fuels are made instead: a huge mistake, as flex fuel cars are nowhere near as efficient as ethanol only.
 
GOT IT NOW? ANYTHING ELSE I CAN HELP YOU WITH?

#1025 of 1067 Re: Too bad if the US chose a lousy solution [galonga] by gagrice

Oct 31, 2010 (6:44 am)

Replying to: galonga (Oct 31, 2010 6:23 am)
Brazil stopped selling PURE ethanol cars in 2007: 86% of the cars being sold today are FLEX and 0% are ethanol.
 
That is what I posted. You were trying to claim that ethanol ONLY vehicles were being sold in Brazil. That went away a long time ago. Due to the volatile sugar cane market. Flex fuel vehicles offer the consumer an alternative if the price of ethanol becomes too expensive. When Brazil brings that huge oil field off shore on line gas may become cheaper than ethanol.
 
What you continue to try and avoid is answering the simple questions. How many Miles per gallon will the cars currently sold in Brazil get on the various fuels sold in Brazil. I would say if you pay $1 per gallon for E100 and $2 per gallon for gasoline, ethanol is a good choice. There is no free lunch. Ethanol does not pack the energy that regular gasoline does. And Gasoline does not have as much energy as diesel or biodiesel.
 
A vehicle designed to run on pure alcohol should be more efficient than a flex fuel vehicle. Just not as enticing to the people that could not get ethanol back in the late 1980s for their ethanol only vehicles. A fact you seem to want to avoid.
 
From 1979 to 2005 more than 5.6 million ethanol-only automobiles and light trucks were manufactured. The success of this first ethanol push was halted in the late 80s and early 90s, when sugar prices increased sharply in the international market, causing a reduction on local ethanol production which resulted in a severe shortage of ethanol supply in the country, forcing the government to import ethanol. As consumers queued at service stations, they lost confidence in the ethanol vehicles, and car makers cut their production, thus the industry declined.
 
http://alternativefuels.about.com/od/ethanol/a/ethanolinbrazil.htm

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