Last post on May 16, 2013 at 6:16 AM
You are in the Chevrolet Aveo
What is this discussion about?
Chevrolet Aveo, Engine, Hatchback, Sedan
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#16 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [poncho167]
Feb 02, 2008 (8:44 pm)
I can see why you would ask that question, based upon the limited comments in the earlier posting. Like you suggest in your question, does 1 bad customer experience make all of a manufacturer's products inferior?
Of course it doesn't. We all know that every manufacturer makes lemons...its a fact.
I have attempted to buy American products since I began buying cars in the late 60's. My 1st car was a 69 bare bones Chevy Nova, 6 cylinder 2-speed automatic...it didn't even have carpeting (instead, it had a rubber mat). It got great gas mileage, but required a new water pump every 10K miles...not much of an issue, as they were cheap, and replacement took about 1 or 2 hours on a Saturday afternoon. Of course, there wasn't much to break, so it was pretty reliable.
After that, I bought a 71 Nova (again, pretty reliable, but also bare bones...this time, I had a 350 CID and a 3-speed automatic).
This is where my experience with GM started taking a turn for the worse. My next sequence of cars, in succession (with major problems listed).....
1973 Pontiac Catalina - Warped front rotors, detached dashboard from firewall. many rattles.
1975 Pontiac Astre-(Pontiac's version of the Chevy Vega) - Severe engine problems. Anyone who had a Vega is well aware of GM's failed attempt on this aluminum engine design.
1976 Ford Courrier Pickup (Made by Mazda). Base truck, 90K miles with no problems at all.
1978 Chrysler Lebarron- 110K miles, replaced front brake calipers at 70K miles.
1980 Plymouth Voyager - Transmission died at 77K miles, Chrysler replaced with a factory rebuilt unit at no charge.
1982 S-10 Blazer - Multiple rear brake problems, never repaired correctly. Automatic transmission leaked from day one, and eventually seized at 35K miles. Front floorboards would fill with water after heavy rain, but only at random times. Leaking problem was never resolved. Rear tailgate/glass rattled incessantly. When looking up the definition of "lemon" in the dictionary, a picture of this vehicle should be visable.
1984 Dodge Pickup- Base truck, destroyed by a drunk driver (in another vehicle) while parked in my driveway.
1985 Dodge 600 - Required new fuel injectors at 70K miles.
1986 Dodge 600 Convertible - Replaced hydraulic motor that lowered top after 2000 miles...no other problems.
1990 Plymouth Acclaim - Didn't have the car long before I encountered another vehicle headed the wrong way in my lane. Airbag worked great!
1991 Chrysler Cirrus - No problems other than an incessant squeak in the dash that I never could locate.
1993 Plymouth Voyager - A great vehicle, only had to replace a defective spark plug wire right after purchase.
1996 Jeep Cherokee- Transmission started having shifting problems at 35K miles. Repaired correctly under warranty. Seat heater replaced at 40K miles.
1998 Chevrolet Metro -Reliable car, but A/C worked poor at best. Would not cool on a really hot day, but 2 GM service depts. claimed it was working according to specs (one tech agreed that it still didn't cool the car sufficiently).
2000 Chrysler T & C - Washer fluid bottle replaced under warranty.
2000 Chrysler Concorde- #6 cylinder pumped oil from day one, using a quart of oil every 600 miles. Chrysler refused to repair, saying this was acceptable oil useage. This attitude turned me off from Chrysler.
2002 VW Beetle - Daughter's car...no problems.
2004 Toyota Corolla- Other daughter's car.Rock solid car, no problems.
2005 Mini Cooper - Temp sending unit leaked at 24 K miles, repaired under warranty.
2005 Aveo - 2 bad Moonroofs, excessive front tire wear, car interior parts began coming loose at 25K miles...lots of rattles.
2007 BMW Z4- No problems.
2008 Nissan Altima. New car.
The point here is that I have never had a GM automobile get 50K miles without a significant problem. Overall, I was happy with Chrysler until 2000, when they refused to fix an oil burning issue on the Concorde.
At the same time, I had several friends running Hondas, Toyotas and other imports without significant problems, putting significant miles on these cars.
As to your neighbor's Sentra...what was the mileage when the belt broke?
Last of all, my specific opinion of the Aveo is that, if you buy the basic model and all you want is basic transportation, you will probably be satisfied overall, but a little unhappy with te MPG. If you did like I did, and buy a loaded LT Aveo, my guess is that you will be somewhat less than happy with it, given you keep it for a few years.
#17 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [busiris]
Feb 03, 2008 (6:50 am)
For the most part a cars success reliability wise is owner related. Brake issues such as warped rotors doesn't sound like a manufacture defect to me and rarely is. If it was that way after buying soon after driving home than yes that is not good but the majority of warped rotors are created during service work when taking off the wheels and then over-tightning the lug nuts. This was especially common on Japanese cars that for years and now use lighter thinner rotors and one good torque of the lugnuts bent those rotors. Now all the American cars for the most part use these same cheap rotors that generally when they wear out you can't even spin them once to resurface because there is just not enough metal left.
My neighbors Sentra timing belt went at 114,000 miles or so. I wouldn't doubt that this car probably didn't have the proper maintenance thus the chain probably wasn't serviced properly, don't know for sure. A lot of consumers are unaware of how to maintain a car and rarely open an owners manual. My experiences are just the opposite of yours with little to no problems from the American cars and trucks I buy but on the other hand I have known many people who bought Japanese and they have the kind of issues you have had with your American brand cars.
Toyota dealer service is famous for telling customers that their warranty or non-warranty repair is just wear and tear thus leading to a false consumer perception and positive continued Toyota corporation profit. Toyota put the engine sludge problem blame on the owners when it was an engine design flaw. When being threatened with lawsuits they quickly responded and serviced those engines and extended the warranty. Toyota's recent rush to be # 1 is starting to hurt their reputation with poor quality cars and more warranty claims. The Camry a few years ago was considered the most reliable car in its class but now it is what, # 3 last I looked. Recalls are at an industry high for Toyota the last few years with Chrysler close behind. American cars (not every model) have been there for years as far a reliability but the perception hasn't caught up to that.
The Japanese did the American manufactures a favor in getting them to build a car better because if they didn't they would nolonger be in business. So yes they have helped out the consumer to get better vehicles to drive. JD Powers continually has American cars (Buick) at the top of the most trouble free longterm which is an evaluation based on 3-years, 45,000 miles of ownership. The lazy UAW helped in hurting the American car industry by not caring what they were doing and for jokes sake hanging beer/soda cans and other things on strings in hard to reach places to rattle away while the cars are being driven thus annoying drivers. I bet you never heard of that one but yes they did all kinds of terrible things intentionally back in the 1960's and 70's and who knows longer.
I worked for many auto dealers during my lifetime with ending that career choice back in the 1980's selling cars for first Mazda, Nissan, and Chevrolet. I also worked as a porter before that at another Nissan dealership, Chevrolet, and Toyota. I don't agree with the reliability rating system because what exactly does that mean? All cars are going to start so that may mean that maybe the seatbelt didn't latch properly. The headlight burnt out faster. The freon leaked out of its compressor? What I saw was that the Japanese cars, which they are known for having better fit and finish in the past had that while working around them. The paint jobs and detail were just better, thats it. Not if the engine would start and last that is mostly a mith created by smart marketing and people believe it. To me it felt like night and day going from Nissan to Chevrolet. The Nissans and Toyota's had the better fit and finish but the Chevrolets seemed much safer/solid because they weighed more and had thicker steel. I felt more comfortable in one of those cars. Body shops had/have a term for metal replacement. When replacing a door or fender they either use OEM or what they call Jap parts. What that means is that the metal is either thicker OEM or the cheap Japanese thin metal. Todays American cars use the thinner metal to save costs and don't have the heavy metal like they did from the mid 1990's and before so they are no different then their Japanese neighbor.
Companies like Consumer Reports have done a dis-service when it comes to cars because of the way that they accumulate information. Are you aware that their statistics are based only on payed subscribers who answer their surveys. Who are these people, what are their demographics, why did they reply or decide not to reply? Its just not legitimate information from a company that admitted in a big apology last years scandal that it outsourced the child safety seat test in which 8-11 seats were reported to be subpar which was not the case and was corrected. I will consider their information when it comes to lawnmowers, paint, appliances, etc., but will go to automotive sources including magazines, Wards and JD Power to get real testing and consumer information when it comes to cars/trucks.
Now you can see why I would question someone on their go Japanese not American preferences and I am not even going to bring up the lost jobs that have occured because of people who chose not to support American companies. We can go there if you wish but for now I will leave it at that.
#18 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [poncho167]
Feb 03, 2008 (1:52 pm)
We are in agreement on several issues you mentioned. Ratings and surveys are only as good as their responses, which are always biased to some degree.
Like you, I don't have a lot of trust in Consumer's Reports, as I have always felt that they had their own agenda. As an example, a couple of years ago I purchased a plasma TV with the cablecard option, eliminating the need for a cable box receiver (an option touted as a "plus" by CU). After having difficulty getting it to work, I did quite a bit of research on the net, finding rampant problems with cablecards. When I contacted CU to get their take on it, they had no idea of any problems with this option.
That spoke volumes to me...either they were being untruthful, or their "extensive" testing wasn't that extensive after all.
And, yes, for years I tried to buy American when it came to big ticket items. But, like I said earlier, after having several friends driving imports and not having the issues that I had, it opened my eyes. And, while I am certainly no fan of the UAW, you can't lay all the blame on them. I have heard stories from family/friends that were union members that would make your blood boil, and I can remember being at trade shows in places like Chicago and not being able to plug in an electric cord, as that was a "UNION" responsibility. ..as if I wasn't capable of doing the task myself.
However, the manufacturing sector has also made its contributions.
For example, a recent article in USA Today spoke about GM's icon (On-Star) will stop working in many GM products made as recently as some 2005 models, due to the wireless networks discontinuing analog cell service in the near future. I don't know about you, but I have had digital service since the late 1990's. This was a concious decision by GM to save a few pennies at the customer's expense. They are not alone in penny pinching...How about Ford and the brake lite sending unit/cruise control related fires? For years, Ford knew that having constant power to the sending unit could cause a fire if there was hydraulic fluid leakage. Also, remember the Pinto gas tank issue, or the GM truck gas tank issue in the 80's and early 90's.
And, the biggest screwing of all?
GM's attempt to convert a gasoline engine design to a cheap diesel during the oil embargo of the early 70's, even though they had the intelligence and manpower to supply a reliable engine. We are still suffering from this ill-fated travesty, and to this day have difficulty finding a diesel powered American automobile.
Believe me, there is enough blame to go around in Detroit for all to share.
Last of all, exactly what is American today, when you give it some thought....???
My new Nissan was make in Canton, Mississippi. My BMW Z4 coupe was make in Spartanburg, SC. My Aveo was made in Korea. All are serviced and sold by local dealers, who are primarily American citizens (I assume they are, anyway)...Just about any electronic device made today comes from China, regardless if it has HP, Apple or Motorola on the label.
Arrogance, by both the UAW and the manufacturers got the American auto sector into the fix it finds itself today. Yes, I also remember the early days of Japanese imports. The Honda Civic was more like a go-cart. The early small truck imports had single wall truck beds, and it was rare to see one that didn't have dents due to cargo shifting around in the bed.
But that was 40 years ago, and in my opinion, GM still hasn't "gotten" it. Until the management of GM starts thinking in a more consumer oriented way, and actually accepts that the imports are "true"competition, I fear that GM will continue to loose market share. Funny thing, though...as Toyota closes in on GM, it appears that they are incorporating some of GM's philosophy, which I expect will start showing up in their build quality...time will tell....
Ford appears to be making an attempt at becoming more adept, and Chrysler has gone private, with the ex-head of Home Depot at the helm (what were they thinking???).
SUV and light truck sales have kept Detroit going over the last few years. I wonder what will happen in the next 10, 20 years????
#19 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [busiris]
Feb 04, 2008 (6:38 am)
One thing the Japanese companies did good was force the American companies to put better products on the road. I am talking about craftsmanship-fit and finish. The truck thing really hurt the American manufactures. Sure they have always had the best trucks but at the expense of mostly average cars with a few being very good as well. No manufacture domestic or import has a model in every catagory that is best in class, thats what makes it such a competitive market nowadays.
I agreed with the Japanese prime minister some 15-20 years ago when he toured the auto plants and said the UAW workers were lazy. It was about time someone said something to get them to wake up and realize it is not fun and games anymore. I know what you mean by a union contractors having to plug a cord in and how much they overcharge for their services. A friends neighbor is a union window installer and he makes six figures doing that. I can also see why Toyota goes out-of-their-way to avoid states that have unions and to seek part-time employees to save on benefits. That may morally wrong, but it is a smart business decision no matter how bad it appears. American manufactures have been forced to seek parts from China, Japan, and Mexico because everyone else is doing it to stay competitive price wise. Have you seen the domestic content of a Camry recently, I haven't but read in an article that it has dipped below 60%. Toyota as a whole including their other devisions brings their domestic content to below 60% as well while GM is still floating at 75% overall but who knows how long that will last.
#20 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [poncho167]
Feb 04, 2008 (4:01 pm)
The only way I can see the domestic automotive industry surviving is to finally begin giving the customer what they want. The big 3 continuously say that they are simply giving the consumer what they want...ie, big gas guzzling SUV's, etc. They say small, fuel efficient cars don't sell very well.
Well, why should they? Try to get a smaller car with lots of options on it and see what you find. Try to find electric seats or a nav system on a small domestic auto. For years, the domestic producers intentionally made smaller cars sub-standard to encourage big car sales. Henry Ford II famously said that "Small cars mean small profits.".
The industry says there isn't a demand for diesel...Right...Go to your nearest VW dealer and ask him how happy he is that VW delayed the sale of diesel Jettas until the 09 model year, to be released this fall. I recently read on Edmunds that one VW dealer says over 33% of new car buying prospects at his dealership come there looking for diesel power.
Will the domestics finally catch on? I am not optimistic. In the case of potentially unemployed auto workers, I really hope I am wrong. I guess we'll see....
#21 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [busiris]
Feb 05, 2008 (7:26 am)
A lot of consumers who are buying the diesels aren't aware of the added costs.
Sure they generally get better mileage than a comparative gas engine (except for the Mercedes sourced antique low-tech Jeep diesel engines) but they cost more and the price of diesel is now higher as well. How long will it take in fuel savings to pay off the higher price of the diesel equipt car? The diesel fuel thing the last time I looked was 70 cents more per gallon. When there is more demand for diesel the diesel fuel will go higher and higher because that is the American way sad to say. I believe this whole thing especially the recent surge in diesel fuel is all politically motivated and someone is getting money under the table.
#22 of 299 Re: new aveo....starting to wonder [bayoubilly74]
Feb 21, 2008 (2:31 am)
My wife and I bought a new 07 aveo last june and didn't have any problems with it until recently. The same thing was happening to us the brake and battery lights were coming on and the brake wasn't engaged. It finally got to the point where the car was dieing on us and we had to keep having it towed to the service center. They could not find out what was wrong with it at first, but eventually they replaced the battery, the ignition switch and finally the alternator ( in that order) since they replaced the alternator we haven't had any problems. Chevy has really ticked me off with this one. It's very unlikely that I'll buy a chevy again.
#23 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [poncho167]
Feb 24, 2008 (6:18 pm)
My daughter is looking at a new Toyota, and I have seen several comments from you in these feeds that Toyota attempts to convince owners that a lot of problems are "normal service items" instead of actual failures/problems. She has a Corolla now, and has had good luck, with no trips for anything other than normal service on her current car (ie, oil changes,etc).
Is there a publication (or web-sites, etc.) that I can get more detailed info on this phenomenon?
#24 of 299 Re: Lemon Aveo [busiris]
Feb 25, 2008 (6:00 am)
I would use a search engine such as google to see if the corporate information regarding this is listed. The recent engine sludge problem was another example of this and Toyota ended up taking responsibility for that after lawsuits were presented. I have read about it numerous times on blogs though I have not seen the official corporate letter to dealer service. Doing a brief search this morning just came up with normal wear and tear information which was part of what they are saying but I didn't see what those items were in the search.