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Geo Metro Engine Questions

410 messages,  Last post on Feb 09, 2013 at 7:23 PM

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Messages Page 41 of 42

#393 of 410 Re: 97 Geo Metro Electrical Problem [heavyhook] by zenden

Jan 08, 2013 (9:05 pm)

Replying to: heavyhook (Jan 08, 2013 11:43 am)
I checked deeper into the interchangeability of the two cars. 1995 and newer Metros with 1.0 L did not have A/T.
  All Brakes, Rotors, Pads, Struts, Calipers, are all the same on 2 door, and 4 door cars with 3 or 4 cyl engines. (Most likely all the same Wheel bearings). I believe the wheel base is longer on 4dr GEO also.
 I wasn’t ready to say cut open the harness yet I want to identify for sure what FI 15 fuse circuit is first. This way I can figure out where it may have shorted to ground when that wire got hot. I will look into it, and how hard it should be to pull the ECM.

#394 of 410 Re: 97 Geo Metro Electrical Problem [zenden] by heavyhook

Jan 09, 2013 (6:00 pm)

Replying to: zenden (Jan 08, 2013 9:05 pm)
the blown fuses so I replaced both. The Thanks Dennis,
I can not express enough thanks for you taking the time to help me with my Metro's problem. Just to clarify its a 4 DR Hatchback 1.0 Lt engine with manual transmission and A/C. Its pretty much as basic a model you could get except with A/c. I am the second owner, I purchased it from my father (53K) about 10 years ago with 53K miles. It had been very reliable over the years except for a clutch I put in and a front alternator bearing freezing up at about 85k. I think I am 89K now. The car has been unmolested by any outside mechanics. I have kept up on all the maintenance including replacing the timing belt and tensioner bearing 60K.
 The current problem started after a 110 mile trip to my new home south of Dallas,Tx . It sat about two months, then I decide to take it to town and three miles later it just quit. Looking back it it sounded a little erratic while cranking up but seemed to be running fine other wise. Then it just quite like I had turned the key off. After towing it back home I found the 60 amp fusible link in the relay/junction box under the hood blown plus the 15 amp FI fuse in the same junction box blown.
 I could find no evident reason for60amp held but the 15 amp kept blowing each time it was replaced. After looking over the wiring systematic I decided to remove the wire harness from around the engine for inspection. I found a area in the starter solenoid wire that had been grounding out. I repaired it as needed, but that did not explain the other fuses blowing. I spent many hours searching for a cause and finally just put the repair on the back burner. Thats when after 2 years I replayed to one of your post last week.
 So I hooked back up the harness I had removed for repair. Now the FI fuse that had previous been blowing was now holding (go figure). But the GEO still will not fire up cranks over fine but will not try to fire. With the key on I have B+ voltage at the coil. I have checked the FI relay and F -pump relay. Both are activating normally except the fuel pump relay the pink wire is reading a grounded signal. If I apply B+ to pink wire in the fuel pump relay the pump seem to run fine? When I use my power probe tester to apply B+ voltage the fuel pump runs. It does not run when I first turn the ignition as it should. I have checked the under dash fuse panel and #3 labeled Tail 15 amp fuse is blown. I have rechecked it with my power probe tester and it blows the breaker at once.
SO THE CURRENT SYMPTOMS ARE: #3 15amp tail fuse in the underdash fuse panel has a dead short. Cranks but no spark at plugs even though B+ voltage at coil. I have not been able to check the injector for voltage signal. I am not sure how I will do this. I have a Fluke multi meter that has a hold option. Should I hook my leads to the wiring connector in DC mode and try to capture the cranking voltage where the injector harness plugs into the injector and do it that way?
After finding the #3 Tail fuse blown, I have started trying to trace the short in that fuse in the under the dash panel even though it doesn't seem to me it has anything to to with my no start situation. I started by unplugging each circuit connector and testing to see if the #3 was grounded after each was removed. I found that when I unplugged what I believe to be connector #1 the ground signal ceased the #3 fuse. I have not found the wiring for this connector yet but I found 4 wires that had a ground signal in that connector. 1st Green/red, 2nd green/yellow, 3rd red/yellow, 4th white wire.
 I believe the last thing you ask was on the dash lights. With the key in the on position both fasten seat belt lights are on, lock door light is in and the low oil pressure light is on.
I know this is a lot to take in. I wiil indeed be patient, so take as much time as needed to think about this mess I have. I am by no means a expert but can do about any test you want me too, and have the equipment to preform them. Thanks Again!!!

#395 of 410 Re: 97 Geo Metro Electrical Problem [heavyhook] by zenden

Jan 10, 2013 (6:48 pm)

Replying to: heavyhook (Jan 09, 2013 6:00 pm)
You can test injector signal with a noid light; About $10 dollars I guess, from Autozone. Most likely you will have a negative signal ; I don’t think that your ECM is bad. But I also don’t think that the noid light will flash when you crank it. Because your Fuel pump relay is not activating! If it is not activating then no power will be supplied to the yellow wire at the injector. Do not connect 12 volts to that yellow wire to test it because you will be bypassing the needed inline resistor that sits between the relay and injector. First are you getting spark to any of the plugs? If so most likely you can start it up by adding power to the pump and the Wht/Blu wire that connects under the Fuel pump relay. That White and Blue wire is the power supply for the injector!!!! Figure out why the relay is not working; switch it with another known good one. On that relay are 4 terminals that are marked somewhere; ( look closely on the mail and female side of that connection.) (#1 connector is Black/White wire, 12 V With ignition in run or start position) (#2 connector is the Pink/White wire, The Trigger Negative - signal from ECM ) ( #3 is Pink wire 12V output to Pump ) (#4 White/Blue wire, 12V output supply to Injector. The Car may start up if you ground #2 to Bat negative and crank it. It won’t hurt anything to try. I hope this info helps, Dennis

#396 of 410 Chasing shorts in wiring by heavyhook

Jan 11, 2013 (11:15 am)

Both the fuel injection relay and the fuel pump relay are activated with the key in the on position. So the relays them self are working. From my testing I believe on the fuel pump relay #2 connector the Pink/White wire, is not getting a signal from A-23 on the ECM. I can apply B+ to the #3 connector and the fuel pump runs.
 I forgot but I have a high end electronic test light that uses low power LED's to indicate signals, Red led for positive and green led for negative signals. I purchased it about 10 years ago to check injector signals on my 86 IROC.I will do those test with it.
I fell like there are no signals coming from the ECM. The TAIL 15amp fuse on the interior panel is shorted. The diagrams I look at show the ECM is powered from this circuit. I unplugged the connectors to that fuse panel one by one and probing the TAIL fuse socket until I found the one that when unplugged removes the short/grounded signal from the Tail fuse socket. That connector is C1. I found 4 wires on that connector that had ground signals. One was a solid white wire that schematics show to be the wire that powers the ECM.
 My thoughts are that until I solve why the white wire is grounded I can never power up the ECM. I would like to be able to disconnect the connector that contains the white wire from the ECM and back probe it at the connector. Would that not indicate if the problem is in that area of the harness? Or could I probe the pin the white wire connects to on the ECM with the connector removed and if I find a ground signal would that indicate the ECM is shorted internally?
I am not sure how I am going to gain access to the area the ECM and this wiring is installed in? Maybe remover the instrument cluster would provide some room to do what I described.
 One last Idea I have is because I found 4 wires grounded in connector C-1 in the back of the fuse panel. I can never remember any grounds ever running thru a fuse panel except one that grounds the fuse panel chassis to the cars chassis where bolts mounts it onto place. Could maybe all 4 of these grounded wires be melted or smashed together some how at some area where they also contact a area that is grounded? It is a very short distance physically between the ECM and the interior fuse panel. That should narrow down the area of the affected area!
I have subscription to AllData.com which provides access to OEM manuals and all OEM Technical Service Bulletins. It shows a to Use a ECM #300009394 manual trans and #30017413 for auto trans cars. Are all the ECM model,year and engine specific. That could make it really tough to find a replacement.
Thanks Doug

#397 of 410 Re: Chasing shorts in wiring [heavyhook] by zenden

Jan 14, 2013 (3:17 pm)

Replying to: heavyhook (Jan 11, 2013 11:15 am)
What I would like to hear is what where your test results from the last message that I sent. Did you ground terminal 2 on the Fuel pump relay and did the car start up?
 
ECM’s are on the right side of dash. Usually just take out glove box. I still don’t think you need ECM. It still sounds like that power supply has melted a wire some ware causing a permanent short circuit.
   
 
Part numbers for your cars ECM are below.
Fits your GEO Metro 1995 1.0 L 5spd Trans
Call junk yard to verify this info; $50.00
They should be all over the internet if you cant find one near you. I could get one and ship it if it was absolutely necessary. I don’t think that old ECM like that are worth much, price only depends on your location. I am between Baltimore and Washington. I will read your message again and do more research on that short that you just described. Sounds like you are on the right track, Good luck!
 
For cars with Federal emissions standards
  FIREFLY 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl) METRO 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl),
Controller (ECM) Part Numbers are:
  30013137, 30016396, 30017506, 3392050G20, 3392050G21, 3392050G22,
 
For cars with California emissions standards
  METRO 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl)
Controller (ECM) Part Numbers are:
  30015669, 30016395, 3392050G10, 3392050G11

#398 of 410 Re: Chasing shorts in wiring [heavyhook] by zenden

Jan 14, 2013 (4:01 pm)

Replying to: heavyhook (Jan 11, 2013 11:15 am)
Check all of these things and let me know if all is well; if not then I need to know what failed.
Test:
FI fuse hot all the time! Supplies constant 12V power to the Main Relay for when needed (MR) Main Relay terminal #4; MR also needs 12V at terminal #1 with key On! Terminal #2 is to be grounded by ECM signal when key is on! When key is turned on, power must come out of terminal#3 to power up the injectors and to send power to the Fuel pump relay terminal #4.

#399 of 410 Re: Chasing shorts in wiring [heavyhook] by zenden

Jan 14, 2013 (5:35 pm)

Replying to: heavyhook (Jan 11, 2013 11:15 am)
Schematics show me that there is no link at all between the ECM and the tail light circuit. There is an idol up diode linked between the brake signal and ECM that speeds the idol up. But that is not going to blow a fuse, so forget that! The only link would be a short circuit!
 Test this and get back with me please: When dose Tail fuse blow out, with switch on or off? Also key on or off? What ever you have to do to blow that fuse; do that same procedure again; but this time with the (Light 1 Relay removed!)

#400 of 410 Geo wiring problems by heavyhook

Jan 15, 2013 (9:20 pm)

We had a storm come thru last Thursday that created some damage to my house, I had to spend the weekend repairing. So I have not been able to work on the Geo since last Wednesday the 9th. This morning we got up to 1/2" off ice on everything which pretty much melted away during the day. I will try to get out and do the test you requested tomorrow.
 One thing I discovered is my Geo is a 93 not a 95 like I told you. Also the wiring diagrams I using from AllData show they are for a 93 Suzuki Swift. It actually shows the white wire from the tail fuse connecting thru C6 or C8 (hard to read which) going to pin A26 for TBI systems to the ECM. Also white wire from tail fuse goes thru C4 to the clock, radio, data link connector. C6 to dome light and C2 to ignition switch (key warning).
 I will test to see if the tail fuse plug is grounded with the key off, I'm sure it is if IG switch on? On the fuel pump relay I will add B+ to fuel pump terminal #2 and try to start and check for ground signal injector if still no start situation. I was able to run the fuel pump before by adding B+ signal to Main Relay fuel pump terminal #4 with relay activated. But I will check the voltage at terminal#2 and I will make a note of that and include in my next post tomorrow! One last thing I can find no Light 1 relay on my drawings. I think I need to find the same ones your using somewhere! Thanks Dennis

#401 of 410 Re: Geo wiring problems [heavyhook] by zenden

Jan 15, 2013 (10:35 pm)

Replying to: heavyhook (Jan 15, 2013 9:20 pm)
No problem! I will check in to the 93 model and let you know if I see anything; the wiring is a little more simplified. If your car has the federal emissions standard, the ECM interchanges with:
 FIREFLY 92-93 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl), Hatchback, base and LSI, MT
 METRO 92-93 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl), Hatchback, base and LSI, MT, Canada
 METRO 92-93 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl), Hatchback, base and LSI, MT
Part Numbers 30010098, 3392060E30, 3392060E31 and 3392060E32

#402 of 410 Test results by heavyhook

Jan 16, 2013 (9:15 pm)

ZenDen, I'm sorry about getting the year wrong on my Geo. I was able to see the bottom of the ECM today while looking for any wire damage above the interior fuse panel. It is located above the interior fuse on the farthest left close to where the left fender is but behind the dash cover. My ECM is # 3392060E32. While checking the condition of when the tail fuse grounds out as you requested I found it was no longer shorted out. I checked to make sure all the connectors on the back of the inside fuse panel were connected securely but could find nothing that looked suspicious. I am really troubled by this. You also requested I test the fuel Injection and fuel pump relays and here are those results.
Fuel Injection Relay
Key on #1,#2,#4 =B+ and #3 negative
Key off #1,#3,#4 =negative and #2=B+
Fuel Pump Relay
Key On #1,#2,#3=B+ and #4negative
Key Off#1,#2,#3,#4 negative
Tail Fuse has B+ key on or Key off
Fuel pump relay #4 does not get B+ when key is turned on for first 2 seconds or any other time that I have found. When I apply B+ to #4 fuel pump runs until B+ is removed. I have not tried to start with pump running continuously with B+ added to #4. Is this ok? No problem with fuel pump running all the time?
I tried to start the engine after no blown fuses existed by using a starter jumper button attached to starter solenoid and placed about 20 cc's gas in throttle body but engine still did not try to fire up. I used the starter button so could be under hood to observe things while cranking.
I did not get any signal at TBI injector wires! Also I installed a fuse in the MIL fuse socket after no blown fuses but no extra light showed up on instrument panel.
What do you think about the short in Tail fuse going away? Could it possible have something to do with left side combination switch that operates headlights, parking lights and turn signals?
Thanks for your input!!!

Messages Page 41 of 42

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