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Hybrid Vehicles Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon Hybrid Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon Hybrid
301 messages, Last post on Nov 23, 2009 at 10:58 AM
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 03, 2007 1:41 pm) I agree that we are at or very close to peak production, and will face declining oil and gas supplies going forward. But I don't think this will result in the doomsday scenario you talk about here...the market will adjust through higher prices (which will impose a real hardship for many, including those in China and India) but as long as the market is able to work as it should, demad will be constrained (due to higher prices) and the pressure and demand for alternatives (hybrids, fuel cells, etc.) will increase. The biggest danger in all of this will be politicians who think it's a good idea to impose "mandates" which will artifically alter the supply/demand equation.
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Replying to: JBaumgart (Oct 03, 2007 5:31 pm) The reason they impose or mandate is to insure the above scenerio does not happen. Goverment has to lead not lag such that econmic hardship does not occur. Sort like what the FED did the with interest rates. The problem is still there but the move has mitigated the sub-prime lenders issue. Just an example. stevedebi, Touché bud.... .
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Replying to: galvang (Oct 03, 2007 6:10 pm) Bad example, the Fed is independent and as such is not influenced by politicians who are mainly concerned about their popularity and getting reelected. You have way more faith in government than is deserved. Too much government meddling = distorted economic result. Just look at the Soviet's 5 year plans, Communist China before they adoped a capitalist economic model, and past European Socialist policies for examples of this. High unemployment, low economic growth, high inflation, etc. All of these have learned from past mistakes, but some here (i.e. dedicated leftists) are still determined to repeat what history has shown to be bad economic policy. If GM's hybrids sell in mass quantities, it will be because in the aggregate individual consumers decide that it is in their best interest to pay "x" amount more at purchase, in return for the better mileage they will get over the length of time they expect to own the vehicle. And that's the way it should be. Unless government can create huge amounts of more supply, which ain't going to happen, the days of cheap gas for everyone is over.
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Replying to: JBaumgart (Oct 03, 2007 5:31 pm) I think that both are going to happen.. tight supplies are going to ratchet up prices. But then if we are not careful suddenly there won't be enough fuel at the pumps one day or the next or the next. Our demand will outstrip the supply unless we can get alternates on stream quickly. Right now say an SUV owner puts 22 gal in his 24 gal tank every week and drives 350 miles. With no additional supplies of fuel in the near future he may only be able to put 14 gal in his 24 gal tank and drive 225 miles. Our national demand is going to be 30-50% higher than it is now due to more drivers, more vehicles and more congestion. If our demand is going to be this much higher where will we get the fuel from? How will we get it into our tanks? It's the government's reponsibility to ensure the public safety. Demand and market forces will do part of the job unless circumstances sneak up on us as the recent data suggest. Then we'e all scrambling until equilibrium is restored. |
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Replying to: JBaumgart (Oct 03, 2007 7:05 pm) Regardless of any of our political persuasions we have a Conservative Republican administration and Liberal Democratic Congress both in agreement that we have to have mandates for more fuel efficient vehicles before the crisis arrives. I think both see the same data and hear the same reports anc come to the same conclusions. To bring this back on track... hybrid technology, from whatever source, will save 30-60% of the fuel used in City driving. It essentially makes city driving as efficient, or more so, as highway driving. That's a huge saving on a yearly basis. Imagine if the entire fleet of vehicles could save 40% of it's fuel for whenever it was driving in the city.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 03, 2007 8:21 pm) I agree, this would make a huge difference. The question is, should government FORCE people to pay extra for the hybrid technology at the intitial purpose? I think individual consumers are in the best position to decide for themselves, whether it's best for them to pay more at purchase or pay more for the fuel they will use over the length of time they will own the vehicle. As the cost of hybrid technology comes down and the cost of fuel goes up, the equation for many will change. But no matter what the cost of fuel is still going up due to growing worldwide demand vs. a stable or even shrinking supply. When it gets to the point that folks of average means can no longer afford to fill their tanks, we will need other affordable solutions, like plug in electrics for commuting, short trips, etc. or eventually hydrogen or fuel cell powered vehicles. But gas will have to get a whole lot more expensive before these technologies will replace ICE's or today's hybrid's.
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Replying to: JBaumgart (Oct 04, 2007 6:02 am) If it concerns nation secutity and safety then it is the government's concern. It's clearly stated in the Constitution that this is one of the prime purposes of a centralized Federal government. It's the government's reponsibility to FORCE the solution if it sees problems arising that the general population doesn't see. The problem of letting 'the market' finding a solution is one of timing. If fuel prices ramp up slowly such that there's no pain only a little discomfort then suddenly all h3ll breaks loose it's too late to react and say back in 2009 we should have been saving. It's like coming to retirement with $57 in the bank. Here is a summary from GCC on the latest study by the DOE given to the Administration and to Congress and to the public detailing what needs to be done starting tomorrow. DOE Task Force report An excerpt: The Nation is substantially at risk, from an economic and national security perspective, to warrant development of an aggressive integrated unconventional fuels development program, supported by attendant policies to promote expeditious development of these resources. This is only the latest of several recently, all of which come to the same conclusion. We're just on the doorstep of a dangerous situation. Note further in the summary that the Task Force recommends other solutions which seem to suggest rationing and/or limiting the amount of driving we do. Now that's a very unpleasant prospect. Given the immediate savings I think mandating the imposition of hybrid technology across the board to save 40% of the fuel used in city driving. Tax credits and fuel savings might net the incresed cost out to zero.
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 04, 2007 6:12 am) My copy of the Constitution (and Bill or rights) does not mention allowing the government to FORCE anything. The Constitution was written to protect the rights of citizens FROM the government. I realize you have good intentions, but think about what you are saying. What if people who have the opposite view from you were to implement the plan that is obviously the best one (to them), against your will? We have gone for 225+ years without the government doing anything that drastic in an attempt to change people's attitudes. Why start now?
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Oct 03, 2007 1:41 pm) In this day of Internet information, why should the public be LESS informed than in past years? Democracy is all about the populace making the decisions. This is in fact the definition of democracy. A group of people making decisions for the populace (with no input from the people) describes several forms of government - none of them with happy memories: fascist, communist, plutocracy, absolute monarchy. In any case, the economics will take care of themselves (if left to themselves). As gasoline cost goes up, the affordability of alternative energy goes down (relative to gas). If we run out of gas it won't happen over night - but when it happens, people will turn to higher MPG cars and alternative fuels - because it makes sense to the customer, not because someone (somewhere) decided everyone should think the "correct" way and change their behavior. When hybrids make complete economic sense, people will buy (more of) them. If clean diesel is introduced, that may make more sense to the consumer... Let me attempt to get back on topic here. In my opinion, hybridizing a heavy vehicle like a large SUV makes no sense at all. Sure, the relative MPG gain is there, but frankly, saving 1-2 MPG is not that significant in relation to the added hybridization costs. Continuing on topic, it would make a lot more sense to use a diesel engine in these vehicles. |
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Replying to: stevedebi (Oct 04, 2007 3:30 pm) Continuing on topic, it would make a lot more sense to use a diesel engine in these vehicles. " I think the Lambda platform vehicles need this system (and would likely benefit from it more too) much more than the Tahoe. This would be a breakthough for GM, but nobody at the General's HQ is talking about that. I know - this product isn't even on the streets yet, but still somebody has got to see this - don't they?! Then put it in a package that doesn't run me into the poor house trying to pay for it - sheesh. Regarding your point about the diesel hybrids - I read somewhere that the benefits of this are less due to the electric motors taking away a big benefit of diesel motors - low end torque. I don't know how much truth there is to this, but this is what I heard.
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