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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16738 messages, Last post on Dec 03, 2009 at 10:07 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2009 6:21 am) Exactly. See my post about his style. He posts long philosophical diversions, never answering the actual question. The "diversion" tactic is common when one really has no argument. |
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Replying to: circlew (Jan 25, 2009 9:16 am) Interesting thought! Goldfinger himself, perhaps! |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 9:24 am) And agreeing to a wage cut in keeping with monetary contraction would have a much better chance of keeping the job indeed. "This leads to the question of the entire society reducing its wages. Only because half of the pay could buy us just as much. FORGET it this is no race to the bottom and we don't need to compete with obscene wages of the third world." This has nothing to do with race to the bottom or the third world. To give you a magnitude comparison: our stock market was down close to 50% at the November trough, and market clearing prices for cars are probably down 30% or so (with cars that previously sold for $15k liquidating for $11k or so) . . . back in 1929-32, the stock market lost close to 90% peak to trough, and cars previously sold for $500 were only clearing for $180, close to a 60% drop. Nominal wage cuts had to be done in severe monetary contractions like that; the alternative is joblessness indeed. "Did the banks reduce mortgage/car payments in half also?" That's why over-extending oneself in borrowing is a terrible idea. On the other hand, the lenders who lent to weak borrowers and did not have enough collateral also paid the price for their bad business decisions. "Maybe, we should pay the bank interest to hold our money?" As well should in a full-reserve banking system, as we would pay a storage fee. In a fractional-reserve system we are paid interest because the bank is out there taking risks "multiplying" money in a bubble. When the bubble bursts, watch out below. It's a little like renting out the lawnmower for fee; yes, for a time your neighborhood may feel like there are more than one lawnmower, many lawns look pretty and you are collecting a fee for it. One day, the lawnmower is going to come back broken, and there is no working lawnmower in the neighborhood. Just make sure you have collected enough fees to pay for a new one. |
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 25, 2009 10:17 am) Rather silly to have those in the same sentence. You fail to see that the company signed the very same contract which the union did. They had no gun to their head and or no one was twisting their arm. This was choice and your all for not living up to one choices, such as the mortgage contract, as you abdicate personal responsibility. Why should cab driver be unprotected? Why should horse cab drivers be unprotected? They can if they so choose to. If UAW can con people into paying out of their own pockets instead of trying to get tax money, I'd have no problem with UAW. So is the UAW going to declare bankruptcy? No, they are solvent. Its just not kosher to big other sub sets of folks into the problems of the one. GM is a separate entity as defined by law. So should we bring suppliers or others too? Yep, tough luck on the creditors who lent to the borrowers. Great, so is there an end to all of this? Union members are free to maintain their club at their own expense if they wish Has it ever been at another's expense? Just like Ford had to wage in 1914 to more than double the unionized coal mine wages in order to keep his workers Just who is going to buy these cars? All of the jobs/capital will move to their most efficient use (China) and you will be left with a third world economy at best. We currently buy the most autos on the planet as a nation. the reality is that unions try to keep non-union workers in poverty and squalor by physically threat and intimidate replacement workers who are chumping at the bits for an improvement in living standard. Where ever did you get this? Its almost comical. Most people coming out government schools probably think the same way too . . . it takes time and exposure to the reality to get many of the misconceptions corrected. So tainted milk or some other tort by private industry is not too big a deal? I hear that some of those in China will be executed for their transgressions, is that true?
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 10:47 am) GM management signed the agreement under threat of a plant shutdown. Baseball bats and guns probably had something to do with the succession of GM management being so spineless and seemingly incompetent in dealings with UAW. The ultimate victims are UAW members, especially retirees, though, as companies are limited liability entities, and they can go bankrupt and have all their liaibilities removed. "So is the UAW going to declare bankruptcy? " Is it? Have you seen its balance sheet? "Great, so is there an end to all of this? " Can be reduced, but not an end, as people are human beings, and make mistakes. Having the lender suck up and pay for its own mistakes however is a strong incentive not to make the same kind of mistakes again next time. "Just who is going to buy these cars? All of the jobs/capital will move to their most efficient use (China) and you will be left with a third world economy at best. We currently buy the most autos on the planet as a nation. " Did New York City starve to death after Manhatten farm lands were abandonned due to cheap import food from the midwest via the Erie Canal? There are many things that Chinese don't do well. Besides, you can't be arguing that their currency is artificially low and accuse them of having extremely low living standards at the same time. The purchase-power parity income of a worker working for GM China is actually not much lower than that of the transplants in the US. That's why the production lines were able to attract college graduates as line workers. "Where ever did you get this? Its almost comical. " Do you deny that UAW have always been vehemently against "scabs"? Do you deny that "scabs" show up because the job pays more than their previous jobs? Use some logic please. "Scabs" are people too, and perfectly capable of analysing for their own benefit, just like UAW members can, and you and I can. "So tainted milk or some other tort by private industry is not too big a deal? I hear that some of those in China will be executed for their transgressions, is that true?" China has an FDA that employs 200,000 bureacrats, about 1000 times that of the USFDA. Yes, unlike our former FDA head serving jail time, theirs was executed. The crimes had nothing to do milk per se, both were taking bribes from drug companies. It seems to me, the bigger the regulating agency, the more unsafe the products are. Not entirely illogical, as regulators are much more susceptible to bribes than consumers are when making choices spending their own money.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 9:42 am) Like I mentioned before, I'm not into personal insults. You asked the specific question, and I gave the specific answer, in as few letters as possible. "So, if I do twice as much as my peer on the job, will management pay me twice as much? They are in fact only paying for one set of benefits and therefore much better off as they having to hire two employees to equal my production. " In the absence of UAW pay scale, you should talk to your management and demand higher pay, with a higher pay offer from a different employer in your pocket. I pay my productive workers much more than the less productive ones. That's the only way to keep them from jumping ship.
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Replying to: circlew (Jan 25, 2009 9:50 am) |
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 25, 2009 11:19 am) Reminds me of illegal immigration de javu..........its not right, either side. "It Ain't Your Color, It's Your Scabbing": Literary Depictions of African American Strikebreakers. by Mark Noon I wonder why They are so shortsighted >As not to realize >That every time >They keep any worker, >man or woman, >White, yellow, or black, >OUT of a UNION, >They are forcing a worker >To be a SCAB, >To be used AGAINST THEM? >--from "The Negro Worker" > These lines of verse, published in The Messenger in July 1919, make a point about strikes that is frequently disregarded in the hundreds of pages of fiction by social realists who addressed the major labor struggles of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries: "[A]ny worker / man or woman, / White, yellow, or black" could be a strikebreaker. In the West, for example, railroad and mining company managers used workers from countries such as China, Italy, Greece, Japan, and Mexico to break strikes, fully aware that these immigrants would have no allegiance to the ethnic groups who had thrown down their tools in protest. Surprisingly, strikebreaking even crossed class lines as upper and middle class male college students also took on the role of strikebreaker to express their antagonism toward workers. (1) The variety of sources of strikebreakers is not fully reflected in the fictional response to the strike. In some of the most significant radical fiction of the early twentieth century, black workers--more than any other group--are curiously cast in the villainous role of "scab." In the span of a few decades, these literary depictions ranged from collective racist stereotypes to sympathetic psychological portraits of the pressures faced by the African American laborer. Ample evidence of friction between whites and blacks can be found in some of the U.S. labor movement's key strikes in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. (2) The use of black troops offers the earliest examples. Black soldiers were used against striking miners in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, in 1892 and 1899, because African Americans "were believed much less likely than white troops to... http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/29/9271
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