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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16705 messages, Last post on Nov 25, 2009 at 6:56 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 25, 2009 8:14 am) predicting what they would do to take care of their own family This all reeks of another great depression. Then your predicting that the banks will have to ask for more in bail-outs? Are you saying that's all UAW members good for? That no re-organized carmaker or new carmaker or any maker of anything else would ever hire an ex-UAW member? No, I personally believe that China will come in and see this as an opportunity to buy the plants at a fire sale. Besides, they were very prudent to invest in T-bills as the fools let their money ride on the market. Just who do you thik the UAW members are? They are no different that you or I. But, all I was saying is that the 7% unemployment is not the truth, when it excludes two groups of people whom are either unemployed and or under employed.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 8:53 am) If consumers are forced to overpay for cars, they will have less money left to pay for the fruits of other people's labor. As simple as that. UAW demanding higher wages is in effect ripping off other workers in other industries. Price mechanism is a matter of everyone voting with his/her wallet regarding what's more important. Union is about coercing someone else to pay more; like your contempt for consumer choice indicated. [But we also recognize that we cannot have a functioning and civil society in which auto workers get paid only what unfettered market forces will deliver to them. ] Speak for yourself please. I never recognized such nonsense. Why should cab driver be unprotected? Why should horse cab drivers be unprotected? "CEOs achieve the same thing by way of the disgraceful corporate governance practices we use. Hedge fund managers basically sucker people into paying them on an absurd compensation scheme. " Yes, I'm against high pay for CEO's of government agencies. Hedge funds do not manage tax money. I'm against bailout of hedge funds too. If UAW can con people into paying out of their own pockets instead of trying to get tax money, I'd have no problem with UAW. [You say unions started for a good reason.] I Never said such a thing. Sorry. [Now the debtors are saying, guess what, you won't let us extract enough wages out of the economy to make a living, so f- you, we are not going to pay our mortgage and our credit card bills. ] Yep, tough luck on the creditors who lent to the borrowers. The very justification for the high interest rate on unsecured loans is that this kind default risk exist. So, it's time for the creditors who were the enablers of irresponsible borrowing to pay up. [Banning the unions won't solve the underlying problem] Union members are free to maintain their club at their own expense if they wish, just stop brandishing the baseball bats, and stop occupying plants when the property owners ask them to leave. [I don't know what the answer is. . . .If someone follows the rules and works hard, shouldn't they be able to have a reasonable standard of living in the richest country that has every existed on the planet? ] Yes, from a competing employer. Just like Ford had to wage in 1914 to more than double the unionized coal mine wages in order to keep his workers. Workers had alternatives at other factories, that's why they left Ford after finding out how demanding and boring it was to work on the moving production line. Ford's method was more productive, so he could afford to pay more . . . more than double the prevailing wage, even compared to the unionized coal mines at that time. ". . . unless we as a society are willing to just allow the least skilled among us to live in poverty and squalor as they compete with one another for the crumbs we are willing to throw to them . . ." Keep that thought in mind when the next time replacement workers show up to take a job that pays more than their previous job would. The story that unions keeping workers out of poverty and squalor is a fiction; the reality is that unions try to keep non-union workers in poverty and squalor by physically threat and intimidate replacement workers who are chumping at the bits for an improvement in living standard. "I have always been a believer in free market and the invisible hand and low taxes and all the rest." I doubt that very much, given your contempt for consumer choice, and given your ealier glorifed recollection of government agencies having invented everything. Don't take me wrong, it's not an insult to you personally. Most people coming out government schools probably think the same way too . . . it takes time and exposure to the reality to get many of the misconceptions corrected.
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Replying to: m4d_cow (Jan 25, 2009 8:09 am) I've seen people who lived trough the great depression. They seem to be tight misers and generally wouldn't fuel an economy. People deserve nothing unless they earn it, and I've yet to see UAW do that. Death imo will fix this. I believe this is the only way to make these people competent again, not rising minimum wage (that will spoil them even more). I agree to some extent. However, I've worked with many that through of their own are burden to society. The mentally challenged, I've seen in the Special Olympics, come to mind as wards of our society. Surely you have some compassion and some heart?
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 10:08 am) Yes, and it's hardly a prediction, as they are asking more this weekend . . . probably an ongoing process until we either cut off the bailout, or the bailout reach $10-20 trillion! The UK bailout tag is already in excess of double their country's GDP. I'm talking about Britain here, not some third-world country. Bailouts create new problems that will require further bailouts. Italian soft cheese makers are asking for bailouts after hard cheese makers got the bailout and bid up milk prices. That's the hopeless nature of government bailouts; also called central planning. "Just who do you thik the UAW members are? They are no different that you or I. " Precisely! They are individual human beings perfectly capable of doing the calculation on what's best for him/herself. If I'm a productive person and can make more than union pay, I would look for job elsewhere. If on the other hand, the union pay guarantees a pay that is higher than anywhere else either due to my own lack of skills or lack of work ethics, I'd stay. Wouldn't you do the same? |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 25, 2009 6:21 am) Exactly. See my post about his style. He posts long philosophical diversions, never answering the actual question. The "diversion" tactic is common when one really has no argument. |
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Replying to: circlew (Jan 25, 2009 9:16 am) Interesting thought! Goldfinger himself, perhaps! |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 9:24 am) And agreeing to a wage cut in keeping with monetary contraction would have a much better chance of keeping the job indeed. "This leads to the question of the entire society reducing its wages. Only because half of the pay could buy us just as much. FORGET it this is no race to the bottom and we don't need to compete with obscene wages of the third world." This has nothing to do with race to the bottom or the third world. To give you a magnitude comparison: our stock market was down close to 50% at the November trough, and market clearing prices for cars are probably down 30% or so (with cars that previously sold for $15k liquidating for $11k or so) . . . back in 1929-32, the stock market lost close to 90% peak to trough, and cars previously sold for $500 were only clearing for $180, close to a 60% drop. Nominal wage cuts had to be done in severe monetary contractions like that; the alternative is joblessness indeed. "Did the banks reduce mortgage/car payments in half also?" That's why over-extending oneself in borrowing is a terrible idea. On the other hand, the lenders who lent to weak borrowers and did not have enough collateral also paid the price for their bad business decisions. "Maybe, we should pay the bank interest to hold our money?" As well should in a full-reserve banking system, as we would pay a storage fee. In a fractional-reserve system we are paid interest because the bank is out there taking risks "multiplying" money in a bubble. When the bubble bursts, watch out below. It's a little like renting out the lawnmower for fee; yes, for a time your neighborhood may feel like there are more than one lawnmower, many lawns look pretty and you are collecting a fee for it. One day, the lawnmower is going to come back broken, and there is no working lawnmower in the neighborhood. Just make sure you have collected enough fees to pay for a new one. |
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 25, 2009 10:17 am) Rather silly to have those in the same sentence. You fail to see that the company signed the very same contract which the union did. They had no gun to their head and or no one was twisting their arm. This was choice and your all for not living up to one choices, such as the mortgage contract, as you abdicate personal responsibility. Why should cab driver be unprotected? Why should horse cab drivers be unprotected? They can if they so choose to. If UAW can con people into paying out of their own pockets instead of trying to get tax money, I'd have no problem with UAW. So is the UAW going to declare bankruptcy? No, they are solvent. Its just not kosher to big other sub sets of folks into the problems of the one. GM is a separate entity as defined by law. So should we bring suppliers or others too? Yep, tough luck on the creditors who lent to the borrowers. Great, so is there an end to all of this? Union members are free to maintain their club at their own expense if they wish Has it ever been at another's expense? Just like Ford had to wage in 1914 to more than double the unionized coal mine wages in order to keep his workers Just who is going to buy these cars? All of the jobs/capital will move to their most efficient use (China) and you will be left with a third world economy at best. We currently buy the most autos on the planet as a nation. the reality is that unions try to keep non-union workers in poverty and squalor by physically threat and intimidate replacement workers who are chumping at the bits for an improvement in living standard. Where ever did you get this? Its almost comical. Most people coming out government schools probably think the same way too . . . it takes time and exposure to the reality to get many of the misconceptions corrected. So tainted milk or some other tort by private industry is not too big a deal? I hear that some of those in China will be executed for their transgressions, is that true?
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 10:47 am) GM management signed the agreement under threat of a plant shutdown. Baseball bats and guns probably had something to do with the succession of GM management being so spineless and seemingly incompetent in dealings with UAW. The ultimate victims are UAW members, especially retirees, though, as companies are limited liability entities, and they can go bankrupt and have all their liaibilities removed. "So is the UAW going to declare bankruptcy? " Is it? Have you seen its balance sheet? "Great, so is there an end to all of this? " Can be reduced, but not an end, as people are human beings, and make mistakes. Having the lender suck up and pay for its own mistakes however is a strong incentive not to make the same kind of mistakes again next time. "Just who is going to buy these cars? All of the jobs/capital will move to their most efficient use (China) and you will be left with a third world economy at best. We currently buy the most autos on the planet as a nation. " Did New York City starve to death after Manhatten farm lands were abandonned due to cheap import food from the midwest via the Erie Canal? There are many things that Chinese don't do well. Besides, you can't be arguing that their currency is artificially low and accuse them of having extremely low living standards at the same time. The purchase-power parity income of a worker working for GM China is actually not much lower than that of the transplants in the US. That's why the production lines were able to attract college graduates as line workers. "Where ever did you get this? Its almost comical. " Do you deny that UAW have always been vehemently against "scabs"? Do you deny that "scabs" show up because the job pays more than their previous jobs? Use some logic please. "Scabs" are people too, and perfectly capable of analysing for their own benefit, just like UAW members can, and you and I can. "So tainted milk or some other tort by private industry is not too big a deal? I hear that some of those in China will be executed for their transgressions, is that true?" China has an FDA that employs 200,000 bureacrats, about 1000 times that of the USFDA. Yes, unlike our former FDA head serving jail time, theirs was executed. The crimes had nothing to do milk per se, both were taking bribes from drug companies. It seems to me, the bigger the regulating agency, the more unsafe the products are. Not entirely illogical, as regulators are much more susceptible to bribes than consumers are when making choices spending their own money.
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