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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16705 messages, Last post on Nov 25, 2009 at 6:56 PM
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 24, 2009 5:07 pm) You have been arguing that unions give workers higher wage, haven't you? Then how come they haven't saved a year's cost of living or more after decades under "UAW protection"? "Two years" is part of "a year's cost of living or more." Do I have to explain what "or more" means? Do I have to remind you that you were the one saying we only need to look at one year, when it was asked whether you were so pessimistic about UAW member's employability that they might stay unemployed for the rest of their lives.
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that send GM and Chrysler down the pit. GM and Chrysler's own management boards are the other major reason. This latter part is where Ford is starting to get it right with. Many of you seem to think that we're blaming it all on UAW. No, as I said so many times before both the UAW and the management are responsible for their mess. Now the real problem is the taxpayers who aren't involved are forced to support them by the means of bailout. Ford still have my support as the only domestic automaker with no bailout in hand, however if the UAW, by any reason ask for government support that'll end my support as well. |
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Replying to: m4d_cow (Jan 25, 2009 7:00 am) The GM bankruptcy (if it comes to being) is but just, one bankruptcy, since they have the "separate entity" status to limit the liability to GM and not to the shareholders assets. Your way ahead of the game. Many UAW represented worker may be living check to check. They may file for bankruptcy and or be foreclosed upon. My thinking is that those will come in the near future and add to the already supply of foreclosures. Not to mention the unemployment rolls. If these people really saved that much, why are they still declining pay cuts when it's the only way to survive? Nothing has been proposed to the membership as I see it or to my knowledge. They have yet to vote on any proposal whatsoever. You're with UAW, while I have no clue how much you saved but making payments on 3 mortgage is no small issue. This shows that UAW workers are very generously paid. Well paid people yet at the same time most are living a life way beyond their reach. Hence when the turmoil hits them they go bankrupt right away, what happened to their savings? Everyone is not in the same boat as to assets. Then again, if you see the turmoil as an opportunity to buy a home/auto, there has never been a better time. My case is that wise investments prior to the current melt down, put me a favorable position. I'm not alone and many will and have come out to do bottom fishing. GM is twisting in the breeze, saying it won't make it through year end without help, but the Bush administration, which has been liberal with aid to anyone who can pretend to be remotely connected to the financial system, has been consistently tightfisted about helping anyone who probably didn't vote Republican, such as auto-workers and people who lost their homes (recall various Republican initiatives to scrub people who had lost their homes from voter rolls). Despite the fact that most voters would find GM workers more deserving than investment bankers (at a minimum, they could not be deemed to have created the mess they are in, or have brought down the entire economy along with them), there is an important issue not getting enough attention: the problems with bankruptcy laws. These laws will cause others (including many autoworkers) into more bankruptcies. Suppliers and even more will feel the ripple effect. Then the workers of these other companies will in turn file for bankruptcy. When do we say that GM is too big to allow to go under? I feel that this is not the time to play politics and if we do so, it would prolong the current crisis. Not to mention what would have happened if the banks were allowed to liquidate. Lets just see if this so call "orderly bankruptcy" is a possibility? Just how many companies and people does it effect? What are the effects of displacement and dislocation of companies of this size? |
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In this scenario, should GM and Chrysler go under, it's to my believe that another company will emerge and salvage the best GM still got left. Naturally, with the way things go at UAW I seriously doubt any of those new owners will ever agree to the UAW wage standard. If the UAW refuse to negotiate further I dare bet those companies will set the new plants down south where unions have no power. Another possible outcome is the death of UAW. As more and more leave the UAW membership to get a job the UAW may experience a slow agonizing death. We're in deep trouble and UAW expect us to help revive the economy. Well, the UAW simply forgets that it has the power to help as well, either they forget or they simply want everyone else to make sacrifices except UAW. |
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You are missing the positive ripple effect of Ch-11 bankruptcy protection: 1. The high interest debts will be written down. So the company will be much more viable. 2. If parts of the company does get liquidated, the resources and labor will be freed up for other opportunities.
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 25, 2009 7:27 am) Does the higher wage fuel this economy and that of other nations? Absolutely and therefore its a good thing. Then how come they haven't saved a year's cost of living or more after decades under "UAW protection"? How do you know they haven't? I'm UAW and have more than that saved. "Two years" is part of "a year's cost of living or more." Do I have to explain what "or more" means? Or more means that we will be in this more than two years, and if we use your logic that we walk away from our obligations, such as a mortgage, this would never ever end. You, sir, frighten me. Your outlook is that of one which would make things worse and in no time the same banking institutions would be back fro more bail-out money, since they are getting homes back at an alarming rate. So, I see your solutions as problematic at best. Do I have to remind you that you were the one saying we only need to look at one year, when it was asked whether you were so pessimistic about UAW member's employability that they might stay unemployed for the rest of their lives. After unemployment runs out, they are excluded from being counted as far as the unemployment rate is concern? Are those who are under employed, such as working for Walmart less than 40 hours, included in the unemployment rate?
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bring out people's true nature. Too much good times makes them lazy. Hardships brings the best and worst of them. It shows the world whether they really have what it takes to survive or not. Those who don't will be forced to improve or wither and die. I believe the death of UAW and other unions will do the same. We will see these if overly spoiled and kool-aided bunch can actually develop themselves and live on without the protection of the union, independent one may say. Those who can't are the ones I refer to as no good, it's by-bye to them. Or at least there's still the infrastructure works for them.  People deserve nothing unless they earn it, and I've yet to see UAW do that. Death imo will fix this. I believe this is the only way to make these people competent again, not rising minimum wage (that will spoil them even more).
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 25, 2009 7:59 am) No, not at all. High nominal wage level is an impediment to economy (that's why businesses have been fleeing high wage areas). High productivity is what lifts both economy and the standard of living. High productivity leads to high wages, not vice versa. If you believe printing paper money alone brings prosperity, you can look to Zimbabwe for counter-example. "How do you know they haven't? I'm UAW and have more than that saved. " Then what's to complain about being given a push to find new jobs? "You, sir, frighten me." Reality is a pretty frightening place  I'm not at all suggesting what homeowners should do, but merely predicting what they would do to take care of their own family. You know what's even more frightening? If and when the government does the ultimate bailout, nationalizing all the big banks, it will be politically infeasible to foreclose, and people will stop paying mortgage altogether . . . regardless whether they can afford it or not. That's just reality . . . as real as if domestic carmakers kept making inferior products, people would buy imports. I'm sure that was a frightening thought to many UAW dreamers a few decades ago, and they chose to ignore that eventuality. "After unemployment runs out, they are excluded from being counted as far as the unemployment rate is concern? Are those who are under employed, such as working for Walmart less than 40 hours, included in the unemployment rate? " Are you saying that's all UAW members good for? That no re-organized carmaker or new carmaker or any maker of anything else would ever hire an ex-UAW member?
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"Everyone is not in the same boat as to assets." While I agree that everyone is different in assets, it simply means they need to manage those savings based on their different needs. Or they simply need to save even more. Say a UAW worker makes the $28/hr wage, but is married with 3 kids. He saved just as much as the next UAW guy, but the next guy is married with no kids at all. Crisis hits, and UAW guy#1 drowns in debt, while #2 still survive. Is that our problem? Do we need to simpathize with them? Hell no. In this example, if you can't afford having kids then DON'T. They're adults, they chose their lifestyle and now reap what they sow. Simply put, the lesson is if you can't keep up don't even step up. Sensibilities seem to fly out the window as too many people choose to live a dream. And then reality hits..... 
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