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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16738 messages, Last post on Dec 03, 2009 at 10:07 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 24, 2009 8:08 am) Yes, there are hard working individuals among the union workers, too, especially in the early years after initial unionization. However, like Gresham's Law regarding bad money vs. good money under fiat rule, bad workers drive out good workers over time when they are paid the same. Those who are willing to work hard and can work somewhere else for more pay end up leaving the place to those who can not make more in the freer market place outside the fiat regime. It seems to me that arrangements like unions tend to unravel after a generation or two. The European carmakers vehicle quality plummetted a decade and half after Americans carmakers did, just about the same time frame differnce between the unionization of Detroit-3 in the mid to late 1930's vs, the post-WWII rebuilding of German carmakers. British carmakers unravelled much earlier as they were unionized even before Americans.
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Replying to: cooterbfd (Jan 23, 2009 7:13 pm) Without a Chapter-11 filing, lenders to GM now would be in line after existing creditors. Who would want to be in that position when the balance sheet shows liability much much bigger than asset? and the company has no on-going profit. With a Chapter-11 filing, new lenders will be at the front of the line, ahead of all existing creditors. Then lending to GM will be viable business decision again. That's why the Chapter-11 process works, That's what saved many airlines.
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Replying to: cooterbfd (Jan 23, 2009 1:57 pm) Whose minimum wage are we talking about? UAW's? It's impossible to run this kind of living standard if only parts of the society gets that wage. Even if it's for everyone, there are dire consequences to consider (more on that later) Also, correct me if I'm mistaken but from your posts you seem to propose that Americans buy American made products only, and only Americans work in America or make American products to maintain this living standard of yours. IMO this means: 1)America will be isolated from the rest of the world, no more global market. Outsourcing will have to be banned, also byebye NAFTA. 2) Exports will be impossible because bloated prices makes US mae products no longer competitive, global market will choose other products and that will be the death of companies like GM who will need more sales to survive. 3) Imports will be priced even lower than domestic products, making them even more appealing. Which will you choose, a $50k Malibu or a $50k BMW? Imports will flood US and US products will be collecting dust. 4)As exports diminish due to incompetitive price, and domestic sales suffer for the same reason, manufacturers need to lower production, means layoffs and slimming down on job market 5)Worse yet, rising minimum wage means producing goods in US will become less and less efficient, and the result? Foreign companies move their production lines elsewhere. 6)Should you propose companies like GM make all cars for US market in US by US workers, and make cars for, say China in China by Chinese workers, remember that it'll be a violation of so many global agreements between nations and damaging USA's rep as thepioneer of free trade = USA becomes even more isolated. 7)To even ensure Americans buy Americans only, all foreign makes must go (unless the government can actually pull the extreme and eliminate the freedom of choice). Their disappearance means less jobs available. Plus a seriously bad move for USA's global reputation. 8)Overprotection of domestic goods and workers lead many unions like UAW to take it easy thinking there's no need to do anything. Result? Lack of development in America, both in the products and it's people. 9)There may not be enough people to hire? Do you know how many jobs foreign companies support? Those will go bye-bye too if prices can't remain competitive. In the end US may survive, but it will by no means develop. With bad reputation globally and overprotection to it's domestic workers, a total isolation is very likely. World power goes bye-bye (well, US is losing it anyway).
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 24, 2009 9:41 am) Trump's business running his 3 casinos in AC is readiing for C11 #3. There's a guy who understands market fluctuations and the tools to survive and come anew. That'll never happen for the auto industry. Too tainted to operate correctly even when they agree they failed. Unbelievable. Regards, OW
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Replying to: wiseman (Jan 23, 2009 3:28 pm) Then all hell breaks loose and it affects the financially prudent like OW pointed out. The financially prudents do the hard work and sacrifices, save money, etc, and then we have to support the losers out there for no credible reason. If that doesn't reek of hidden communism I dont know what does. Wiseman, I pesonally think a bit diferently about central planning. IMO only the consumers get to decide what's productive, competitive and what's not. The government agencies are simply predicting things. Thus the only time the government can decide what's productive is in communism imo.
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 24, 2009 8:08 am) In UAW's case, wouldn't that be too obvious??? If the good makes for the 80 then why are we having this discussion?
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Replying to: circlew (Jan 24, 2009 10:43 am) Fear... and greed.  I don't see way out of this mess without Ch.11. Sacrifices must be made, and personally I find UAW expendable. |
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Replying to: Hoop1234 (Jan 23, 2009 8:01 pm) Yes, Hoop, they no longer compete, no longer feel the need to improve, and then before you know it they'll start screaming for income distribution, socialism or just straight down to communism. Hows that for future generations? If that's where our nation is heading I'd better start planning to move elsewhere. |
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Replying to: m4d_cow (Jan 24, 2009 11:12 am)
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 24, 2009 11:22 am) Then it's cherry picking time, only this time cut the rotting tree (UAW) first before the best cherries (20%) get spoiled. The other 80 will be in for second filtering, the still decent ones can still be taken, while the rest belongs in the dumpster for all I care. Comparing it with football, the select 20% get recruited right away, the other 80% need to pass an extra trial, then some leftovers taken as substitutes. The rest better look for another career in life. Like I said, the select few (the 20% in this example) can survive with or without unions. Companies looking for actual qualified employees will look for them. They'll find new jobs in no time. Sometimes you'll need to relocate, but it's a small price for a better life.
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