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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16719 messages, Last post on Dec 02, 2009 at 6:09 AM
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Replying to: yankabilly (Jan 15, 2009 3:59 am) This is how things work for most of us, why are you surprised. It's the reason you might shop at 1 grocery store over another, haggle over the price of a car or a house, or negotiate your pay. I have no union, work with other engineers who make different amounts, but am content with what I make. How can that be - because the basis of getting paid what you're worth is the ability to say to your current employer - "I don't like my pay and I'm leaving for better pay at Company BCD". If you can't do that then you're either making the maximum you're worth, OR being paid too much, since you can't find other work paying the same. Similarly what a house or car is worth = what someone is willing to pay for it at any given time.
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Replying to: yankabilly (Jan 15, 2009 3:59 am) Your work is a merchandise that was simply worth less than you think it was - just the same as a used car dealer sets their asking price at $10K and agrees on $6K. As you don't want the government to make you pay 10 grand for that used car, somebody else should not be compelled (read coerced) to pay you $12/hr just because you say so. Ultimately, they offered you took it, end of story. All most unions want is package mediocrity and coerce employers to pay for it as it were top notch performance with no option of actual verification (try to fire some union drunk who show up hour late and has to be cleaned after every single time). Pay this guy as he were master of universe just because I say so, or else. No, thanks.
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Replying to: yankabilly (Jan 15, 2009 4:02 am) It was an attempt to get socialized medicine. Envisioned by Harry Truman in 1945 and signed into law by LBJ in 1965. It ended up covering Social Security recipients. It is not free just less expensive than other insurance coverage. I pay $96 per month taken out of my SS. It is mandatory coverage. You also need supplemental coverage which can cost as little as $30 per month and go over several hundred. For those of you keeping count. Out of those 20 years that Congress fought against socialized medicine, the Republicans only controlled the House and the Senate two times. So the Democrats fought against universal health care as much as the Republicans. Same as in 1993-94 when Hillary tried getting it past a Democrat controlled Congress. Here is the big question. Why, if Universal Health Care is SOOO important to the UAW, do they not want their retirees going on Medicare at age 65?
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Replying to: dino001 (Jan 15, 2009 6:04 am) What you have pointed out has killed most of the trade unions in CA. Non-Union contractors come in and underbid the Union contractor for two simple reasons. The Non-Union contractor can change the going rate of pay to match the market without opening a Union contract. They can also weed out the non producers and keep the best workers on payroll. My wife's steel company was Union until her step son took over the business in the early 1990s. That was a bad time for building and he found he had no flexibility to lay off the less productive workers. The bidding became so critical you could not compete as a Union contractor and survive. So he shut down and re-opened as non union. Most of the good workers came to work for him at the same pay & benefits as when they were Union. Just no work rules to deal with. That is what GM needs to do in a bankruptcy. Get rid of the UAW and its 2200 pages of repressive work rules.
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Replying to: kernick (Jan 15, 2009 6:01 am) It is simple supply and demand. Rocky always pointed to my $38 per hour as a reason that a UAW worker should get $30 per hour. That IS pure idiocy. The reason I got what I did was a willingness to work away from home and family. I lived in a 10X12 room for half the year and ate in a cafeteria. It sounds like a great job. We had many people work in the Arctic one shift and not come back. They did not want to leave the wife and kids for 3-6 weeks at a time. If I had quit and gone to work in CA doing the same work, I would have been lucky to get $25 per hour with no pension. If a person thinks they are worth more than they are getting paid. Find someone that will pay that price and quit where you feel underpaid. That is the beauty of a system like ours. Unions can rob us of our individuality by bringing the good producers down to the level of the poor producers. That is where the UAW, AMA, NEA and many Civil Service Unions are right now.
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Replying to: m4d_cow (Jan 15, 2009 2:20 am) 1) if the workers are really skilled enough, they wouldn't get laid off. If they're skilled enough, as soon as they get laid off they'll get another job easily. 2) If the workers are skilled and aren't overpaid, other companies will gladly take them. 3) If they're smart enough they would've boycott UAW rules that force them to join the union. 15 or so years ago, we were going through a consolidation in the defense industry. The VP of our division went to the IBEW and IUE asking for concessions to help manage costs. These were not wage or benefit reductions, but rather he just wanted a relaxation of the work rules so workers could be more easily moved around to meet the demands of the program. Well, the unions (a lot like the UAW, it seems), balked at this, so the VP played hardball. He just told 'em if he didn't have the flexibility in the unionized workforce he needed here, he would just move the work elsewhere where the unions did not exist. Since we already had mfg plants in Texas and Puerto Rico, they knew he was not bluffing. He got what he wanted, and the result is that the jobs stayed in the area. On another note, this same VP noted that he never noticed the workers on the floor or the maintenance staff (unionized) leaving for greener pastures. He concluded that things for them must be pretty comfy (wages and bennies above the industry norm) for them to stay. On the other hand, professionals (engineers) were leaving all the time for better paying positions, so the company put more money into the raise pool for the professionals to keep they around. This was a good example of items 1 and 2 in your post. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 15, 2009 6:28 am) I have a close friend that is a teacher and is in their union. I learned long ago not to talk to her about unions and someone who has tenure. She's very good at what she does, has won numerous teaching awards, and makes less than some tenured teachers who keep a bottle in their top desk drawer. That is what the unions have done to her school district.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 15, 2009 6:06 am) Here is the big question. Why, if Universal Health Care is SOOO important to the UAW, do they not want their retirees going on Medicare at age 65? I do not understand. They are on Medicare at age 65. Is somebody saying different?
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Jan 15, 2009 6:58 am) Was that part of the 2007 contract concessions? What was all the flap about viagra and retirees? Is it the supplemental that is costing GM a bundle? Or do the retirees pay their own supplemental, as most of US retirees? Something is costing GM $1500 per car related to the retirees health care. Or Wagoner and Gettlefinger are not being honest.
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Replying to: yankabilly (Jan 15, 2009 3:59 am) You're missing the real point. The point is, putting enough effort (read: work hard) and keep improving yourself (brains, skills, etc) makes you a valuable asset, which means the upper guys will want to keep you as long as they can. If you put mediocre to so-so effort and wish to get better pay, just drop dead. What's real sad is many Americans think they deserve more than what they get. UAW is a great example for this, not all of them of course, but many of them keep putting mediocre effort while thinking they deserve more and more pay. This type of people will fail, they always do, because the world isn't nice and only those who work hard can survive, period. This is why UAW and many other unions fail, they get too lazy and greedy to the point their lifestyles make no sense anymore. |
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