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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16658 messages, Last post on Nov 08, 2009 at 4:26 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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I am by no means an expert here (some other posters here seem to have a much deeper understanding of this issue), but Japan has a National Health Insurance scheme (we all have to pay into the scheme, and then our medical expenses - or 70% of them - are covered by the insurance) which seems to satisfy the definition of a "socialized health service". You pay as a % of your income, but the returns you receive are based on your usage of the system. Thus high income groups pay a lot more than they get (since usually they also maintain better health)(I must have paid 20x more than what I have received from the system....). This system, while great for the below median income group, suffers from two major disadvantages (and this is not just my opinion, but a debate going on in Japan) : 1. It encourages inefficiencies. Hospitals have an incentive to keep people in hospitals for as long as possible (to increase occupancy rate - like a hotel...), since they can then charge National insurance for that. When my daughter was born, my wife was ready to go back home after two days (she was in the hospital because a C-section was required), but the Doctor told me "What is the hurry? She can stay here for another five days (the Insurance cover is for a maximum of seven days), so why go home and wash dishes? Here every thing is take care of, ha ha!". You get the point. 2. It is (like the US SS system) a sort of a ponzi scheme, in the sense that the insurance payments are based on the assumption that the population will keep on growing. Now that it is actually declining, the system is in a crisis, and they are starting to reduce the coverage (so the Government is now implementing a "cap" - where costs above a certain amount will require a larger percentage payment by the patient). Obviously for those who are healthier than average, the benefits of this scheme will continue to decline. There is a third (longer term) disadvantage too - Because this system can encourage the Hospitals and Pharmaceutical companies to gang up and gouge the insurance, Japan mandates a reduction in pricing for prescription drugs (e.g "7% lower this year than last year"). While this may solve the problem of over pricing, this reduces the returns Japanese pharmaceutical companies can get on their investments (since the price will always go down), and thus cannot compete with the likes of Glaxo Smith Kline (who are not mandated to reduce drug prices - and thus can charge whatever the market can bear). I am not sure which system is better, but just thought that since I live in a socialized system, this perspective might be helpful.
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Replying to: manegi (Jan 10, 2009 7:47 pm) |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 10, 2009 4:15 pm) So there a case where someone takes advantage of the system. There is no fool proof system. Large banks have been had and don't want the bad press. Even Walmart has been conned. Big time! These are kept secret because they are bad for business. I won't go into the scams and add to the problem. However, they were anything but clever. Medicare and Medicaid are keeping less pencil pushers, no value added, folks out of the system. This is waste and so is the method in which over 50 different companies pay claims in 50 different states, with their own rules. |
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 10, 2009 12:22 pm) First of all, we know that parts are brought into this country and put together to avoid VAT. Its the same manner in which companies like to operate in Texas as oppose to other states. Fact is that if it weren't for the news, I wouldn't even know that we are in recession. Them fools are still building homes here. The United States has provided a better economic climate for business and hence we are the largest consumer nation on the planet. Then the currency manipulation is a fact of life. The central banks do this all the time. They do it to keep people like George Soros from making a cool billion in one days, as he has done in the past. Its legal and there are people out there looking for opportunities to do just this. The article is well written and if you can't see the point. You just don't understand macro economics. I'll go a step further and state that you have no earthly idea of what the end of the UAW/Big Three means. At best Toyota/Honda will be a niche market, much like MAC computers (10%) and China/India will make the rest. They might buy the logo/brand, but the end product will employ their population. Does anyone know if the big drug companies have to pay taxes if they are based in Puerto Rico? |
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Replying to: jimbres (Jan 10, 2009 1:32 pm) So you found out that your paying for the German health benefits in that BMW? So how much less and more appealing would the Caddy be if GM didn't have to bear the full cost of the American health benefits and it was spread out across the entire economy? how does the VAT give them an advantage? It narrows the price gap, hence it makes their product more appealing than that of a UAW employees. My only argument is that taxing should be uniform worldwide. 1. Drop any tariffs, quotas or other special taxes on imported goods and services. 2. Drop any market-distorting practices, like selective subsidies, taxes, regulations or other policies that favor domestic or foreign products or services. 3. Provide free access to accurate information about the markets involved. 4. Allow money and other forms of capitol to flow unrestricted between countries, without currency manipulation or restrictions. 5. Labor must also be able to travel freely within the free-trade region. Then the UAW will have the advantage, we invented everything and that includes robotics, composites, and even the IPOD. Just like in the Olympics, we will take the gold again and again. We are the market they want entry into aka the Americans with deep pockets. The UAW has lots to do with that fact.
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The people left holding the bag are you and me. http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_3415.cfm |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 11, 2009 4:47 am) Caddy would be more appealing at a lower price point. All taxes should be balanced globally. Hard to achieve with special interests (UAW) and uneven economies. Regards, OW |
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An old tale about two mid-20th-century titans may be apocryphal, but it offers insights into our economic history. Henry Ford II and Walter Reuther are jointly touring a modern auto plant. Ford jokingly jabs at Reuther: "Walter, how are you going to get these robots to pay UAW dues?" Not missing a beat, Reuther responds: "Henry, how are you going to get them to buy your cars?" It is easy to romanticize the '50s, but the era did have some positive features. Unions along with minimum wage and unemployment insurance contributed both to the emergence of a strong middle class and to rapid economic growth. Americans may well have paid more for cars than if the "Big Three" had not been unionized, but unions had a protective effect that went well beyond their immediate membership. Many bosses -- from construction to the emerging giants in retailing and services -- hated unions and were willing to pay above market-rate wages in order to forestall union organization.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 11, 2009 5:36 am) I have witnessed first hand on several attempts to organize companies where they used tactics like you are saying. I have seen companies give big fat bonuses, throw elaborate parties, increase wages. I have also seen competing Unions screw potential Union members out of their chance to have representation. At least 3 times I remember two Unions were vying for workers at companies in the Oil Fields. Two of those times the company was able to take advantage of the situation and won the NLRB election. Of course as soon as the dust settles they start the old we are not doing well and have to cut wages back. In 1970 when we signed cards with the IBEW to become Unionized, the Teamsters snuck in via the telephone operators. It was a hard fought battle. Operators out numbered the technicians 10 to 1. It was still a close election. The Teamsters knew how to throw better parties and convinced the operators they would get the best deal with their representation. And that was probably true. As the local Telephone operators under IBEW contract did not fare as well as our long distance operators. I would probably be getting about $2000 more per month retirement with the much better run IBEW pension plan. Automation has all but eliminated those 1200 operators. There are more technicians today than in 1970. Automation will continue to eliminate UAW jobs and increase high tech jobs. If the domestics survive. PS In 1970 RCA Global preferred working with the Teamsters. They did not put out any anti union propaganda. Their employees world wide were under Teamster contracts and felt that was to their advantage. AK Teamsters were not quite as easy to deal with as the International was.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 11, 2009 4:47 am) So you think that the VAT explains why the BMW is less expensive than the Cadillac? If so, you missed my point. Both the BMW & the comparable Mercedes are considerably more expensive. Cadillac enjoys a significant price advantage over its German competition, & yet it can't translate that into increased sales & profits. In the luxury market segment, perceived status matters much more than price differences, so you can't blame Caddy's problems on how other countries tax their citizens. Caddy's problem, which, by extension, is also a UAW problem, is that far fewer people aspire to own one. You can say that the German brands attract status-seeking badge hounds & you'd be at least partly correct, but I'm old enough to remember when status-seeking badge hounds hungered for Cadillacs & made the Cadillac division a profit monster that was the envy of the entire industry. Why can't Caddy get back some of these shallow people? Their money is just as good as anyone else's. 1. Drop any tariffs, quotas or other special taxes on imported goods and services. 2. Drop any market-distorting practices, like selective subsidies, taxes, regulations or other policies that favor domestic or foreign products or services. 3. Provide free access to accurate information about the markets involved. 4. Allow money and other forms of capitol to flow unrestricted between countries, without currency manipulation or restrictions. 5. Labor must also be able to travel freely within the free-trade region. I'm a hard-core free-trading Cato Institute supporter, so all of these sound good to me. My main brief is with some UAW supporters who say that until all countries adhere to these principles, the U.S. should be as protectionist as the worst of its trading partners. I don't buy that.
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