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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16663 messages, Last post on Nov 08, 2009 at 9:32 PM
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Replying to: lumoy (Jan 06, 2009 3:45 pm) You keep getting me mixed up with people I quote. If what I post is in Italics, it was said by someone else. Quite frankly if the UAW members want that albatross that is their business. My question was where did the Pension money come in? Was it borrowed to pay for the resort? If all the money comes from dues and strike fund that is UAW money pure and simple. I don't care if they burn it. By the way. In CA property is taxed at the selling price. It can only go down if you can prove to the assessors that it is not worth what you paid. Depreciation is a completely different factor. Has nothing to do with property taxes anyplace that I have owned property.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 06, 2009 3:31 pm) i tried to explain to you once about the difference between defined benefit plans and defined contributions plans but it obviously didn't take. let's try it this way--you can negotiate for a contribution of x dollars per hour worked to be put into a trust fund such that the trustees of that fund manage and money and provide whatever benefits they want. --that defined contribution and the way the world is going--because it gives the employer a precise, fixed cost. the teamsters and your employer went that route and set up a taft hartley trust fund to pay the benefits. defined benefits are very different: the parties sit down and say--ok when someone retires what should be the monthly pension and/or what health care benefits should we provide and how long should we provide them. the parties negotiate over benefit levels and coverage. the party making the pledge to pay the benefits then gets to decide how to provide them. set us a trust fund or defer payment until joe blow retirees. that the way the uaw and big three went. the uaw negotiated for benefits to be paid by the big 3 when the factory rat retired and these benefits continued to be in contract after contract. it was the BIG three's choice how to provide the benefits pensions were backed by a pension trust fund set up and funded by the employer. an independent trustee bank was selected to handle and manage contributions, the investments and send out the pension checks. on health care Gm could have started trust funds and funded these costs over the working life of the factory rat. or hell GM by itself was so big it could have started its own health care system with clinics and doctors. but GM chose not to fund its retiree health insurance promise and instead concluded something like "we'll still be making cars with a million employees working around the country, monthly health care costs are only about $30 a month now and even if they go up slightly the country will come to its senses and adopt national health care to stabilize these costs and stop the insurance and drug companies from robbing us blind. well we know it didn't work out that way. maybe the uaw should have known that the magic scare words "socialized medicine" would be used for two generations to scare us from doing what now has to (and will) be done. but that is not the joe the plumber's's fault. he is saying hey i've got a pile of contracts and letters here telling me i would have health care during retirement. I pushed the uaw to get that for me instead of wage increases what do you mean you guys in the UAW mean that now you want to negotiate it away. will you do that to my pension too. so you say to joe the plumber it's either negotiate it away now or lose it in bankruptcy joe's response is probably going to be i'm not going to make that choice. you are asking me how i want to die- by my own hands or by someone else, no other options. maybe i'll die but i'm not going give you that satisfaction of making me select between those two options. by the way, i was there with doug fraser for the chrysler loan guarantee in the late 70's. it was a billion dollars then and the government insisted upon uaw concessions. these concessions were given as they are being given now- i seem to recall going over to highland park to reopen the agreement 3-4 times in less than a year. . it was tough. it started concession bargaining in the industry which has never really stopped. the "new directions" movement sprang up from within the uaw to challenge the leadership for negotiating concessions. the canadian region even broke away from the uaw and became the independent canadian auto workers union. history shows that the loan was repaid early, indeed the taxpayers made a nice bundle on the chrysler stock. more important the taxpayers did not have to pay the huge expenses (more than a billion) associated with guaranteeing pensions under ERISA, unemployment insurance and other safety net programs. i don't know what the community, personal bankruptcy and supplier industry losses might have been but even more important is that fact chrysler has stayed afloat for another 30 plus years paying pensions, health insurance to thousands of retirees and providing good paying jobs to thousands of chrysler workers. for all you out there that apparently want bankruptcy to work its magic in the market-- there is some history out there to think about.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 06, 2009 3:54 pm) the uaw has no control over pension funds-- all expenses for operations of the uaw black lake center - taxes, pension costs, wages, snow removal etc come from interest on the uaw strike fund per convention resolutions adopted by the delegates for the last upteen years. in michigan ( and i bet california too) your property taxes are based not only on the value of the land but what you have attached to the land or the improvements you have made to the land---like a golf course. in michigan when buildings approach 40 years of age they depreciate in value. In 2007 waverly township and the UAW agreed that the market value of the entire UAW black lake center was $12.3 dollars and the uaw paid property taxes on that value. so now what evil do you still see in the fact that the uaw has spend 33 million in acquiring the property, constructing the education center and then building a golf course with its membership's money? |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 06, 2009 3:03 pm) I won't say it went over anyone's head, but I think the truth is hard to argue. What I am seeing with the UAW is a big let down for many slightly skilled workers. When a forklift operator makes $118k per year and loses his job, that is going to be a reality check. No company in their right mind is going to pay a fork lift operator that kind of money. That is exactly the point. I learned to drive a fork lift in high school and got paid the equivalent today of about $10/hr. Hardly demanding work and certainly not worthy of anywhere near $100k/yr. If the company can afford to pay those kinds of wages, then great. But don't come crying to me when the company can no longer pay you that much and you have a $2k/mo mortgage and skills that equate to $10-15hr. I think the day's of the big 3 paying those types of wages for unskilled labor are over. Nothing wrong with tiered pay scale where skilled labor gets a good competitive wage and the guy pushing a broom is on a pay scale that relates to the job and skills of the person filling the position.
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Replying to: lumoy (Jan 06, 2009 6:39 am) The Big Three, The International, Black Lake are all separate entities. Thats how corporations work in this country. They treated as separate people, with limited liability. So if GM goes broke, the stockholders don't lose their assets other than what they have invested in GM. If your interested in buying from any of these separate entities? Contact them and make an offer. I'm sure they need a good laugh. Your logic in linking separate entities exposes your ignorance. As Abe said "it is wiser to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to open your mouth and remove all doubt". |
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Replying to: dieselone (Jan 06, 2009 5:00 pm) i suspect that the facts may show your joe and the other well known joe have a lot in common-- they don't exist. average big three rates are under $30 an hour.- almost the same as the transplants. but again notice how nobody ask about the average income for executives or salaried workers--let alone any of the wall street types, investment bankers and insurance brokers who actually got us into this mess. i guess their skills were such that they deserve their millions and their trillion dollar unconditional bailout.
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Replying to: dino001 (Jan 06, 2009 8:23 am) You have choice when you spend your money as you choose. WE would like the same consideration and believe the more choice the better for WE the consumer, not to mention the WE also get better pricing when more players are involved. Do you know how many UAW members take Viagra? How many UAW members are over weight? How many UAW members are lazy? This is nothing but a pathetic attempt to smear good hard working folks. WE would rather you go to Mexico, Germany, Japan, or China, just for the principle. |
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Replying to: lumoy (Jan 06, 2009 4:45 pm) I hope you are wrong, as it will bankrupt America, as the UAW has done their part to bankrupt GM and Chrysler. And if they need my tax dollars to keep going they ARE BANKRUPT. Whether they file or not. the canadian region even broke away from the uaw and became the independent canadian auto workers union. According to what I have read it was due to UAW unscrupulous tactics. maybe i'll die but i'm not going give you that satisfaction of making me select between those two options. It has to be a shock living your whole life in a dream world of Utopian wealth and to find one day it was built on sand. Reality will make the choice for you. You may have to join millions of US poor Union folks that get by with Medicare and a supplement. I was promised Medical, dental and eyecare for life also. After 20 years of expectation the reality of bankrupting our pension by giving it all to the medical industry, forced a choice on the Pension trust directors. I am glad they did not choose to bankrupt the Pension fund.
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Replying to: dino001 (Jan 06, 2009 2:15 pm) Grassley seeks transparency from AIG regarding use of Fed loan dollarsWASHINGTON – Senator Chuck Grassley has asked American International Group, Inc., AIG, to disclose its expenditures so far of the $123 billion lent by the Federal Reserve Bank in order to prevent the company from filing for bankruptcy. Grassley based his inquiry on an October 30 New York Times story which is included here with his letter of inquiry. October 30, 2008 Mr. Edward M. Liddy Chairman and Chief Executive Officer American International Group, Inc. 70 Pine Street New York, NY 10270 Dear Mr. Liddy: Today, a story in The New York Times reported that the American International Group, Inc. (AIG) has already used $90 billion of the $123 billion lent to it by the Federal Reserve only one month ago. The article also notes that AIG has refused to provide the public with a detailed and transparent accounting of what that money has been used for, offering only that “some is being used to shore up its securities-lending program, some to make good on its guaranteed investment contracts, some to pay for day-to-day operations and […] tens of billions of dollars to post collateral with other financial institutions.” AIG’s use of the Federal Reserve loans is ofgreat interest to the American people because they are footing the bill. Moreover, some experts believe that AIG will need additional funding over and above the $123 billion the Federal Reserve has already lent it. As Ranking Member of the Senate Finance Committee, I request that you provide a briefing to my Committee staff regarding this issue. In addition, please provide responses to the following questions: 1) Please provide a full and detailed accounting of AIG’s $90 billion (or more) in expenditures to date. 2) When does AIG anticipate using all of the $123 billion emergency loan it received?3) How much more money does AIG believe it will need to borrow in the future?4) When can American taxpayers expect AIG to repay the loan it received?
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Replying to: lumoy (Jan 06, 2009 5:32 pm) You really need to quit reading those liberal blogs. You have such a hatred for Republicans that you cannot even believe the truth coming from your own UAW members. Here is a story of Oscar that filed for bankruptcy because loss of OT cut his wages down to $87,000 per year. It makes me cry for the guy each time I read it in your own liberal Detroit News. As was pointed out. Most any fork lift operator in the USA would be sitting in hog heaven making $87k per year. Not the spoiled UAW workers of Michigan. I know PHDs in San Diego that would be tickled to make that much. http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0509/18/A01-318432.htm
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