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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16663 messages, Last post on Nov 08, 2009 at 9:32 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: dieselone (Jan 06, 2009 7:58 am) I see your comment went right over the heads of many here. It was a good speech and had lots of good advice for tough times. What I am seeing with the UAW is a big let down for many slightly skilled workers. When a forklift operator makes $118k per year and loses his job, that is going to be a reality check. No company in their right mind is going to pay a fork lift operator that kind of money. The individual had a base pay of $87k per year. That is so far above the average in this country that it should have never happened. But GM and their buddy, buddy contracts with the UAW did exactly that. I know people at district level at HP that do not make $118k per year. And they work 60-80 hours per week with NO OT. Just part of the salary. They have 100s of employees under their supervision.
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Replying to: dino001 (Jan 06, 2009 2:15 pm) i agree with you: i said much earlier in this long list of exchanges that the taxpayers and congress have an absolute right to ask how is this going to be repaid and to ask the uaw in particular what are you doing to help restructure the industry in the long term. i have detailed what the uaw has been doing to restructure the industry in many prior exchanges which you may not have read. the 2007 contracts which already provided for new hires at $14-15 an hour with greatly reduced benefits and the huge legacy costs to be transferred to UAW Vebas are being re-opened and renegotiated as we speak. the job banks are gone! my quarrel has been with those who accept fox noise broadcasts that the loan money is being used to finance a plush uaw resort for uaw big shots. it is not. i have tried to argue that this is a membership education facilty for uaw members and families finaced by interest from the uaw strike fund. i have tried to argue that public demands that the uaw sell the center are not the public's business. |
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Replying to: lumoy (Jan 06, 2009 2:41 pm) For me the real issue is how much more that CAW member pays in Canadian taxes, compared to his UAW brother in Michigan or Indiana. Don't forget the imports building cars here in the USA are paying at least part of the health care premiums. And why don't you hold the UAW responsible for your health care after retirement. They made the deal to carry forward the cost and tack it on the future workers shoulders.
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Replying to: bpeebles (Jan 05, 2009 2:50 pm) Wrong, wrong WRONG!!!!! YOU can't buy one because that engine probably does not meet US Emissions standards. If it did, it could easily be built HERE!!! I doubt the UAW would say no to work. I fit does meet our standards, more than likely the management doesn't believe it will sell well here. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 06, 2009 2:51 pm) BREAKING: GM-UAW Talks Accelerate (KXYZ) More details in this story: GM and UAW begin negotiations tonite (Autonews) "The UAW was singled out for more concessions than any of the other stakeholders, including bondholders, dealers, suppliers or others, Gettelfinger said. The union is willing to help, he said. But the process is being slowed by confusing loan language and the absence of a federal point person or car czar to clarify questions, he said. The so-called term sheet of the loan calls on the UAW to agree to competitive compensation with the Japanese transplants and more flexible work rules. What's more, it requires new multi-billion dollar trusts created by the UAW for retiree health care to be half paid with automaker stock instead of cash."
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"The UAW contracts place the Big Three in a competitive vice, says Logan Robinson, a professor of law at the University of Detroit Mercy and former legal executive at Chrysler and parts suppliers Delphi, ITT Automotive and Metaldyne. He cites the fact that all three of these OEMs are struggling in their home US market while generally doing just fine in regions across the globe where the UAW contracts are not in force. “How can we explain that whenever GM, Ford and Chrysler leave our shores, they compete well in foreign markets as varied as Europe, South America and China? What makes them viable competitors as soon as they cross the border?” Robinson asks in a recent Wall Street Journal column." Supply Chain News: Is the UAW Really at the Root of US Automakers Woes? |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 06, 2009 2:36 pm) ok on the difference between the uaw's book value for the center of 33 million and the agreed upon (waverly township in 2007) taxable value of 12.6 million - a mobster scandal you say. perhaps you do not know the difference between the concepts of book value and market value for tax purposes. the two value often are different. the book value on you home is different than its market value. that difference does not make you a criminal or a mobster. i will try a last time again: the black lake property was acquired in the 60's and building began in 1967 with the center opening in 1970. construction improvements and additions continued through the years with 6 million of so being put into the golf course in 1998-99. course opened in 2000. all of these costs amounted to what the uaw has spent--that $33 million figure represents book value. you have a book value on your property too-- land costs plus improvement costs. market value is not the same as book value- buildings and equipment depreciate over 40 years and lose their initial cost value. worse-- the real estate market fluctuates. demand goes down when trickle down vodoo economics is proven wrong for the upteenth time. money and credit get scarce during big recessions and a buyers market develops. property values and prices have been declining rapidly in michigan for some years with many properties, are now worth but 50% of the purchase prices that existed before the great decider rose in the pumpkin patch.. in 2007 the township assessment for the center was $13.7 million -that is what the township assessor claimed the uaw center was worth on the open market--assuming someone could be found to buy it. The UAW said that sounds too high for the market right now and appealed to the state tax tribunal- where the uaw has consistently won prior assessment disputes. the township and the uaw then agreed to use a $12.3 million value for the center's 2007 tax assessment. perhaps, like our local drain commissioner, you believe it is wrong for the uaw to appeal its assessment. however even if you believe that the uaw, unlike any other property owner in our county, should not have the legal right to question a tax assessment. However, there is nothing corrupt or evil or illegal here and i think you should now admit that.
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 06, 2009 3:36 pm) He says the union is willing to help, but everyone needs to get on the same page. There are close to a 1000 dealerships that have gone out of business this year. They paid the ultimate price. And especially the workers in those dealerships. Most of which did not have a fat Union pay check to start with. So far all have heard from Gettlefinger is whining. When they cut ALL the UAW workers pay back about 20% it will be a good start. The current line workers have not given up a thing. They have shoved it off on the new hires, Retirees and those that get laid off. I asked a while back when was the last time a UAW workers lost any wages in a contract? All I got was silence from the hard liners. What that tells me is no matter how bad the economy might have been the UAW got a raise or did not follow the downward trend. They are making more than their skills can support. |
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Replying to: lumoy (Jan 06, 2009 3:45 pm) You keep getting me mixed up with people I quote. If what I post is in Italics, it was said by someone else. Quite frankly if the UAW members want that albatross that is their business. My question was where did the Pension money come in? Was it borrowed to pay for the resort? If all the money comes from dues and strike fund that is UAW money pure and simple. I don't care if they burn it. By the way. In CA property is taxed at the selling price. It can only go down if you can prove to the assessors that it is not worth what you paid. Depreciation is a completely different factor. Has nothing to do with property taxes anyplace that I have owned property.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 06, 2009 3:31 pm) i tried to explain to you once about the difference between defined benefit plans and defined contributions plans but it obviously didn't take. let's try it this way--you can negotiate for a contribution of x dollars per hour worked to be put into a trust fund such that the trustees of that fund manage and money and provide whatever benefits they want. --that defined contribution and the way the world is going--because it gives the employer a precise, fixed cost. the teamsters and your employer went that route and set up a taft hartley trust fund to pay the benefits. defined benefits are very different: the parties sit down and say--ok when someone retires what should be the monthly pension and/or what health care benefits should we provide and how long should we provide them. the parties negotiate over benefit levels and coverage. the party making the pledge to pay the benefits then gets to decide how to provide them. set us a trust fund or defer payment until joe blow retirees. that the way the uaw and big three went. the uaw negotiated for benefits to be paid by the big 3 when the factory rat retired and these benefits continued to be in contract after contract. it was the BIG three's choice how to provide the benefits pensions were backed by a pension trust fund set up and funded by the employer. an independent trustee bank was selected to handle and manage contributions, the investments and send out the pension checks. on health care Gm could have started trust funds and funded these costs over the working life of the factory rat. or hell GM by itself was so big it could have started its own health care system with clinics and doctors. but GM chose not to fund its retiree health insurance promise and instead concluded something like "we'll still be making cars with a million employees working around the country, monthly health care costs are only about $30 a month now and even if they go up slightly the country will come to its senses and adopt national health care to stabilize these costs and stop the insurance and drug companies from robbing us blind. well we know it didn't work out that way. maybe the uaw should have known that the magic scare words "socialized medicine" would be used for two generations to scare us from doing what now has to (and will) be done. but that is not the joe the plumber's's fault. he is saying hey i've got a pile of contracts and letters here telling me i would have health care during retirement. I pushed the uaw to get that for me instead of wage increases what do you mean you guys in the UAW mean that now you want to negotiate it away. will you do that to my pension too. so you say to joe the plumber it's either negotiate it away now or lose it in bankruptcy joe's response is probably going to be i'm not going to make that choice. you are asking me how i want to die- by my own hands or by someone else, no other options. maybe i'll die but i'm not going give you that satisfaction of making me select between those two options. by the way, i was there with doug fraser for the chrysler loan guarantee in the late 70's. it was a billion dollars then and the government insisted upon uaw concessions. these concessions were given as they are being given now- i seem to recall going over to highland park to reopen the agreement 3-4 times in less than a year. . it was tough. it started concession bargaining in the industry which has never really stopped. the "new directions" movement sprang up from within the uaw to challenge the leadership for negotiating concessions. the canadian region even broke away from the uaw and became the independent canadian auto workers union. history shows that the loan was repaid early, indeed the taxpayers made a nice bundle on the chrysler stock. more important the taxpayers did not have to pay the huge expenses (more than a billion) associated with guaranteeing pensions under ERISA, unemployment insurance and other safety net programs. i don't know what the community, personal bankruptcy and supplier industry losses might have been but even more important is that fact chrysler has stayed afloat for another 30 plus years paying pensions, health insurance to thousands of retirees and providing good paying jobs to thousands of chrysler workers. for all you out there that apparently want bankruptcy to work its magic in the market-- there is some history out there to think about.
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