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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16723 messages, Last post on Dec 02, 2009 at 8:12 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Mike, I have read many of your links with interest, from the earlier post. What is your take on the UAW golf resort? I realize that GM made promises to the retirees over the years. My personal belief is the UAW failed to assure those promises were properly funded. Now they have this lame VEBA plan that will probably fail. As a life long Union member in 3 different Unions. My question is why didn't the membership see this mess coming back in the 1970s when jobs were being lost by the 1000s. It was not hard to see that a diminishing membership would not be able to support a much larger group of retirees. It is poised to get even worse as the baby boomers start retiring en masse. Buying out 30 year members will only worsen the situation. A 30 year UAW worker could be as young as 48 years old. Way too young to retire. Yet what kind of job will he get? Nothing like the $100k per year he was making as a UAW lug not assembler. The truth of the matter is most line worker jobs are only a step up from minimum wage burger flippers. Unless the person has the skills and ambition to get further educated they will be on the welfare roles in a short period of time. The UAW is a failed attempt at Socialism. So I agree the UAW leadership has sold the workers out. The Workers and retirees have been betrayed by promises the UAW knew were not possible to keep.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 03, 2009 6:59 am) This Family Education Center, which is open to all of the membership has taken the label of resort. The classical Orwellian lexicon to redefine something good into something bad. Orwell wrote about how language would be manipulated to reduce the ability to ever speak the truth. Over 10,000 UAW members and their families use it yearly. Have you taken, or for that matter has anyone asked any of those who have attended for their take on this? "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." -Isaiah 5:20- I realize that GM made promises to the retirees over the years. The Workers and retirees have been betrayed by promises the UAW knew were not possible to keep. Who made the promise? Did they not both go to the negotiation table in good faith? I'm thinking that both parties here failed to see that health care would rise at a level beyond inflation. They failed to see the power the medical lobby, managed care, and drug companies presented in Washington. The UAW is a failed attempt at Socialism. Can we then say that the socialist program of "no investment banker left behind" is an enormous success? |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 03, 2009 5:22 am) Oh, we do this all the time over in Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?. Someone will post a link and then the people behind the link turn out to have a nefarious agenda and that helps detract from the point made. I do it all the time.  Meanwhile, either Black Lake is either worth $x or it isn't. Doesn't seem exactly kosher for the UAW to be using a low number for the tax value and another for the pension funding.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 03, 2009 6:13 am) This is the pension squeeze companies aren't talking about: Even as many reduce, freeze or eliminate pensions for workers -- complaining of the costs -- their executives are building up ever-bigger pensions, causing the companies' financial obligations for them to balloon. Article was from 2006. GM salarieds/execs no longer have pensions being accrued (right term?)( as of Dec '06). They will get pensions for what they earned but now have to put into 401's, which are no longer matched by GM as of a few months ago. And anyone hired in the last 15 years or so never had pensions, just 401's with match. Oh, I just looked it up. For new hires after 1992 GM puts 1% of salary into your 401 for your "pension" and did match up to 4% (but no longer).
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The last I checked, the UAW doesn't make light bulbs. /hint |
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Jan 03, 2009 7:46 am) That only effect those whom are yet to get on the plan. Those prior have rights to this pool of money (pension) and the administrator of such a plan have legal obligations. When the stock market goes south, so do the funds within these pension plans. Therefore, they might be deemed underfunded and GM has the responsibility to fund and or wait for market conditions to improve. I have no knowledge of that executive plan dissolving. Which would have been an option in better times. Just payoff the present value and let each person go off on their own. I bet the money managers (Wall St) wouldn't take kindly to such an idea, since they draw benefit/income from managing the pension fund. On the next stock market boom, lets see how serious companies are about dissolving defined pension funds. The GOP should have done this for employers and not listened to the Wall St money managers. I most definitely would rather get the present value and do my own investing. Most plans have a fixed amount set. Such as $50 a month per year of service. They know how many folks are entitled, as well as how many have earned vesting. Then there are provisions for survivors. They then calculate what they need to satisfy the obligations. This is put into simplistic terms, some may have adjustments and or other stipulations. In any case all these things are taken into account and actuarials are made up. The insuring concern looks at these to see if they are over/under funded.
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Replying to: steve_ (Jan 03, 2009 7:44 am) I disputed my property assessment this year and got a 10% decrease. Here, in Texas, a group of taxpayers, I think it was five agreed that my home was worth a said amount. I could have taken it to the courts, but I thought it was reasonable. The pension number is beyond my knowledge and speculating would be an injustice. I'm an excellent cross examiner. Send me to Black Lake and let me give them the third degree. I've done it prior and there was nothing of substance. Just rumor and or ignorance doesn't make the UAW corruption.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 03, 2009 9:20 am) But the UAW sits around, says we've already suffered enough, we're not going to renegotiate the contracts, we don't care how little money folks doing the same job at Honda and Toyota make, and by the way, we have this huge expanse of land complete with a world class golf course, all of which is losing the union money but we're keeping it and here's your raspberry, honey. Not good PR if the union wants sympathy and support for the upcoming card check-off campaign. |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Jan 03, 2009 9:20 am) It is not ignorance except on the part of UAW members. That pension plan that is subsidizing the golf course for UAW members, should be under supervision. If you claim you have an asset in the fund that is not worth what the fiduciary says it is worth that is Fraud. All we are saying is the UAW says it is worth one amount when it is considered part of the Pension fund and another when it comes time to pay property taxes. My second and more pertinent question is this? How can you say this fancy resort and golf course is an asset to the members? First they have to pay $1000 per year for membership. Then up to $85 for 18 holes of golf plus $15 for a cart. How many UAW members have the time off to Drive 292 miles for a round of golf. This resort is purposely placed a long way from the grunts to keep low life members from using it. The fat cat leaders can go up and hang out as much as they like and call it a seminar or training. Also how many months per year does the course stay open in Northern Michigan? I would say 7 months max. So if you are lucky enough to get one round of golf per month and stay overnight because of the 6 hour drive each way, it will be about $400 plus food. The UAW leadership may have you fooled into believing that is a wonderful asset for UAW members. It would not fly with me. At least the Alaska Teamsters were honest when they built that massive resort community in Palm Springs (Indian Wells). They did it to make money for the pension fund. If you wanted to come and play golf it was at the going rate. Which was not as expensive as your UAW exclusive resort. PS That $400 does not include the wife or kids. You have to find someone rich enough to play against.
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