Edmunds.com | Inside Line | Auto Observer Your Account | Help | Directory
You are here:
![[F]](http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/townhall/webxicons/site.gif){kind=small}
Forums
Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16738 messages, Last post on Dec 03, 2009 at 10:07 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
|
|
|---|---|
|
Replying to: steve_ (Dec 22, 2008 8:18 am) Is that the cost of assembling the parts as an automobile or is it the total cost of labor, as in the labor of making the seats, the steering wheel, the dashboard, the rearview mirror, the tires, and all the parts in the car as well as assembling the car? Maybe this has been answered somewhere, but I missed it if it has been mentioned.
|
|
|
|
|
Replying to: lokki (Dec 22, 2008 6:46 am) Engineering at Boeing and Bell Helicopter are union/UAW. The fast growing higher education is also being unionized in major universities at a rapid pace. I know that there is a highly skills trade part to the Big Three whom are union. They make/repair tooling, fixtures, dies, molds, robotics, and other means of production to get to the end product. Trust me you don't even want to see the skills trades hourly rate, but generally its $10 an hour over the national agreement. I have dealt with these young eager engineers full of piss and vinegar. Both union and non union ready to set the world on fire. They learn quick, do great work, and are an American asset. In the corporate environment something happens where they transform and or morph into just employees. No different than that autoworker who comes in wanting to do a great job. Doing whatever he/she can to better their lot in life and that of their family. I hate to call it burn out, but many companies deal with this. Its the companies responsibility and to their benefit to keep its assets (employees) productive. As for the current state of the economy - there's plenty of blame to go around for both parties, but both Bush and McCain tried to institute reforms back in 2003 and 2005. Democrats (including and specifically Barney Frank) blocked those efforts. Additionally, the whole sub prime market was generated by the Carter administration and then expanded by the Clinton administration. The Reagan legacy is deregulation and ends with the Phil Gramm ENRON loophole prior to congress going into their recess in 2000. There is a quoted speech by GW Bush taking credit for the housing boom and his continuing efforts to remove such barriers as down payments. We could go on into the ethics of Gramm's wife being on the ENRON payroll and the rational behind the FED lowering interest rates after the dot com bust, but we could never convince you that the GOP are not the conservatives they claim. The classical liberal is been made to mean something bad, when they by nature are the real deregulates, hands off lassie faire, let the markets decide, no bail outs party. This is but a rerun of the S&L bail out the big fish/lobby. Yes, Honda and Toyota are both losing money. The difference between them and GM however, is that their expenses go down when their income goes down. Japanese workers are paid comparatively low salaries, but substantial bonuses. ( You will recall this is the same system that is used by the Japanese employers in the states). In good times the bonuses are large. In bad times, the bonuses disappear and the wage costs go down. Admission is the first step to recovery. Its economics 101 that the autos and housing are the first to go into recession and the first to recover. The process has been delayed by silly gimmicks, Zero down, employee pricing, red tag sale, to name a few. These do nothing but prolong the inevitable. Those who get in on these deals/gimmicks/promotions more than likely have a used car which is likely to be traded in. Hence, we glut the used car market (remember once you drive that new off the lot, its used). To reduce inventory deals/gimmicks/promotions/rebates are used to entice buyers. $5 dollar subs at Subway aren't going to make them much profit, however, they are only intended to weather the down cycle/keep the doors open for the better days to come. The car business is not any different. They have relied on leasing to move inventory. Leasing comes with the residual and or the assets value at some future date. So high gas prices affected this residual value. Its not very hard to imagine what some of these gas guzzling SUV's lost in value. Only a fool would go on to pay the residual value, so the bank or note holder is stuck with a bad investment, the market is glutting, hence the prices of these and all autos (foreign and domestic) take a hit, the banks now have to sell these assets and lick their wounds. Adding insult to injury, since they have other assets decreasing in value as well (housing). To fuel this economy, they seek help from govt, lower interest rates, rebates, tax incentives, bail outs, and anything to put out the fire. Remember, each percentage point the interest rate increases, that many fewer buyers and or qualified buyers on the market at any given time. Then too we must remember that interest rates are used to fight inflation (rising prices) and its not too wise to use them as a stimulus too much (were almost at zero). The only weapon left for govt is fiscal policy (congress spending). Too much govt spending may also cause a devalued dollar as oppose to other currencies. My solution for Detroit? It's simple. GM should be forced into bankruptcy, and reorganized. I am reluctant to diminish the pensions of those who have already retired, but the current system is unsustainable. A cost benefit of unemployment benefits/pension dumping/social services/loss of tax revenue/Wall Street and whatever else would be interesting on something this big and or that effects this many people. You don't even have any idea of the ripple effect of letting this happen. current system is unsustainable Are we forgetting that during the S&L bail out, Donald J. Trump, Trammell Crow, Hall Financial Group, and many more were too big to liquidate. They paid back all that money and in fact made billions after-wards. Chrysler Corp in 1979, Lockheed in 1971 and New York City in 1975. Yes, Honda and Toyota are both losing money. The difference between them and GM Any fool would have rather had GM stock during more years than those of Toyota/Honda. Its not even close. At the moment, for a time period, GM looks bad to some and very cheap to others. Honda/Toyota may look god to some and bad to others. Lets examine the GM history and all these unprofitable years. Then too you fail to mention the fact that GM purchased EDS for about 4 billion and sold it for near 28 billion. When G.M. shareholders approved the spin-off of EDS years ago, the company's $2.5 billion purchase was worth $27.6 billion. And after paying $5 billion for Hughes in 1985, G.M. has since sold its pieces for $9.5 billion to Raytheon, $3.75 billion to Boeing, and, in its latest deal, Echo Star will pay $26 billion. General Motors sells 51% stake in General Motors Acceptance (GMAC) to Cerberus Capital Management, Citigroup and Aozora consortium for US$14bn in 2006 GM sells 78% stake in GMAC Commercial Holding (its commercial mortgage arm) to KKR, Five Mile Capital Partners and Goldman Sachs consortium for US$8.8bn in 2006 GM agrees to sell 17.4% stake in Suzuki for US$1.98bn in 2006 GM sells Avis in 1996 GM also aquired the AM general Hummer business, which is a cash cow in the military business today Free advise: a smart man would look at the
|
|
|
Replying to: imidazol97 (Dec 22, 2008 8:50 am) I don't think a break down of total labor has been posted. I see cost from $1500 to $3000 per car as legacy costs. I am assuming that is the price for retiree health care. Pensions should not be tacked on as there is a fully funded pension plan to pay those costs. That means that somewhere around 10% is just legacy cost. Another question. Does it take that much more labor to build a $30k PU truck than it does a $20k Malibu? Or a $70k Escalade vs a $45k Denali Yukon? |
|
|
Replying to: dallasdude1 (Dec 22, 2008 9:03 am) We could ramble all day about totally irrelevant issues to the collapse of the Big 3 and what part the UAW is playing in that collapse. Why is Gramm's wife so important and Dingell's wife with her high paid do nothing job at GM never mentioned? Could it be you have been so biased against the GOP that you believe the Dems are above reproach? You have pointed out all the assets the GM has sold over the last few years. Yet they still had $72 billion in losses over the same 4 years. Must be doing something wrong. Selling controlling interest in GMAC may have been real dumb now that no one wants to carry a lease on GM vehicles. Could it be that GM is paying for their ignorance in buckling under to the thug tactics of the UAW over the last 10 years? You do not make a good case for the UAW holding onto the status quo.
|
|
|
Replying to: steve_ (Dec 22, 2008 8:18 am) An avg. Civic sells for $20k so 320/20000= 1.5% of total car value for cost of assembly wages paid to workers. Now I realize that FICA taxes are paid and so are benefits and eventually there could be even bonuses. The 10% UAW piece of an American car has to be a high estimate and include the legacy costs and the engine production and trans production labor that is UAW as well, since there is not even a 2:1 base wage ratio. It is easy to see how Honda derives more than half of it's worldwide profits from North America sales. |
|
|
Replying to: dallasdude1 (Dec 22, 2008 9:03 am) Admission is the first step to recovery. Its economics 101 that the autos and housing are the first to go into recession and the first to recover. The process has been delayed by silly gimmicks, Zero down, employee pricing, red tag sale, to name a few. These do nothing but prolong the inevitable. Those who get in on these deals/gimmicks/promotions more than likely have a used car which is likely to be traded in. Hence, we glut the used car market (remember once you drive that new off the lot, its used). To reduce inventory deals/gimmicks/promotions/rebates are used to entice buyers. $5 dollar subs at Subway aren't going to make them much profit, however, they are only intended to weather the down cycle/keep the doors open for the better days to come. The car business is not any different. Frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about or how it applies to what I've said. It's a nice At this link, you'll find the bottom line for GM http://money.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/44132.html
|
|
|
Replying to: lokki (Dec 22, 2008 10:58 am) |
|
|
|
|
Replying to: gagrice (Dec 22, 2008 12:16 pm) 78% of those polled by the very liberal CNN would not buy a GM or Chrysler product after the bailout was announced. Not quite what it said. Are you more likely to buy a car from GM or Chrysler after Friday's bailout? So if you are the 35% or so who already may buy a GM of Chrysler product they are not more likely to buy. If you are the 65% who would not be buying a GM of Chrysler you are not more likely to buy a car from them. If what you said was true there would be only 22% or less buying that would be a huge drop in sales and that is not being shown in Decembers sales at least. Me personally and some of my friends are not more likely to buy a GM product because of the loans. So we would have been one of the 78%. The guy that always buys Ford/Toyota/whatever would also have been one of the 78%. And that 22% would now be MORE likely to buy their products. So the bailout is causing more to buy the vehicles. Perhaps because they feel the companies will be around or because they want to keep the companies in business or whatever.
|
|
|
Replying to: dave8697 (Dec 20, 2008 11:10 am) ooooohhh...here comes the mr. humanity in all his glory. The savior of the species that is going to be extinct. Mr. Dave. This is called the Darwin's Theory. And I do not like the idea that everybody in the soccer match gets a trophy regardless of whether they won or lost, and even Kindergarten kids get a graduation certificate. Guess what? Do you know the US Tennis open player that came in 4th? or that football team that came in 4th place? >High school kid runs a 4:08 mile and comes in 4th place at a high school meet. His parents run over and congratulate him. Ah....I would not run over and congratulate him. Why should I? I would go over and offer my condolences and give him a spanking and a lecture so that he can try harder next time. Congratulate for coming in 4th? My foot. |
|
|
Replying to: dave8697 (Dec 20, 2008 11:53 am) Are you somehow indicating that the poor quality of Automobiles is responsible for a better American life? and that improving the quality would somehow not improve the quality of life here?
|
|
You are here:
Forums
Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
New? Join Now!
Forum Tools
Search Forums
Browse by Vehicle
Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
Today's Chats
