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Automotive News & Views United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)
16738 messages, Last post on Dec 03, 2009 at 10:07 AM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Dec 22, 2008 2:27 am) Why should the Republicans explain what is obvious to the most casual observer. The UAW over the last 40 years has slowly destroyed the goose that laid their golden egg. GM has not made a decent profit in 20 years. While companies like Toyota and Honda have made record profits. It is NOT the consumers fault that GM builds vehicles that do not appeal to the buyers. As more and more money has been spent on keeping promises that should have NEVER been agreed to in UAW contracts, the imports have been gaining market share. Then when it is too late to reverse the trend, the UAW decides maybe we will screw the new employees to protect the employees that have been the problem at the Big 3. You know the employees I am speaking of. The ones that have fought against modernization of factories. The ones that would rather have a factory move to Mexico or Brazil than to displace a few of their featherbedding long time members. The UAW does not deserve to survive. They have killed the domestic auto industry as much as anyone. GM is a failed company. Brought down by unsustainable contracts with Dealers and labor. |
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Sorry I don't fit your typical stereotype of the UAW worker. Sorry the GOP has let America and you down, supply side, trickle down, and silly tax breaks have this nation in dire economic straits. Then again I live in a rather affluent area and assume your depression is due to your environment. All I hear from you is problems and no solutions. However, the average UAW worker fits the profile of the stereotypical UAW worker. As for the current state of the economy - there's plenty of blame to go around for both parties, but both Bush and McCain tried to institute reforms back in 2003 and 2005. Democrats (including and specifically Barney Frank) blocked those efforts. Additionally, the whole subprime market was generated by the Carter administration and then expanded by the Clinton administration. Yes, Honda and Toyota are both losing money. The difference between them and GM however, is that their expenses go down when their income goes down. Japanese workers are paid comparatively low salaries, but substantial bonuses. ( You will recall this is the same system that is used by the Japanese employers in the states). In good times the bonuses are large. In bad times, the bonuses disappear and the wage costs go down. I have never claimed that Japan has all the answers. They've been in a bad situation for at least a decade. It'sactually been more than a decade since Japan started phasing out the lifetime employment system. Companies there have abused national health care system by only hiring employees as part time, and thereby giving them no benefits at all. There is now a whole generation of "freeters" who are basically independent contractors and temporary employees. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeter If that's not enough, they're getting laid off. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aq2BRUMs9Q2Q&refer=japan My solution for Detroit? It's simple. GM should be forced into bankruptcy, and reorganized. I am reluctant to diminish the pensions of those who have already retired, but the current system is unsustainable. Your solution from your comfortable ivory tower seems to be to keep doing what hasn't been working.
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Replying to: gagrice (Dec 21, 2008 7:58 pm) I see blame being placed on the UAW for the thicness of the metal (perceived thickness? being tinny could also be a result of the shaping as well as the malleability of the metal alloy chosen), but the UAW didn't pick the metal thickness or physico-chemical properties. I see fit and finish being blamed on the UAW and that could mean poor assembly by leaving things not aligned, tightened, etc., and that is on the assembler. However, the choice of materials from which to build the thing was made by GM and its suppliers in tandem working to minimize costs. That cost pressure is partly because of the high UAW costs for some workers and for many retirees and their checks and their healthcare plans. In another post the fit and gap of the doors was mentioned. The choice of gap on the truck was chosen by GM and its engineering/design staff. The gasket type and fit for the door was by the GM staff not by the UAW. The UAW may have not installed the door properly to fit; that should have been corrected by the dealer in their predelivery inspection for which they are well compensated. Or it could have been readjusted after delivery for you upon warranty complaint. Obviously it wasn't. (My leSabre has 3 layers of seal along the bottom of the door which is really quiet.( My visit to the Moraine plant, may its soul rest in peace, was eye-opening two winters ago. That line stopped often because of someone pulling the cord. The digital signs told who had stopped the line. There were people scurrying over to help fix whatever was noticed or needed. Sometimes the skillets stopped only for less than 30 seconds; couple of times it was for nearly a minute. I grant that was IUE/??? workers rather than UAW workers so may have been unique to that plant. But I was impressed. I don't support the UAW as much as I used to, but they have been blamed for many choices that were the company management rather than the workers. The workers indirectly affected the choices by the cost pressures due to high legacy costs which the transplants enjoyed not having along with a currency bias that helped sell their cars.
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Dec 22, 2008 12:16 am) I'm surprised it's that high. You have to wonder if that's just for the domestics and what the labor cost is for the foreign automakers.
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Replying to: imidazol97 (Dec 22, 2008 8:06 am) There are many things the UAW has no control over. I blame the whole GM organization, from Wagoner to the guy pushing a broom for 30 years. They all should have seen this coming when the company was not profitable over 20 years. They all should have done their part to plug up the holes in the sinking ship. I was not so adamant against the UAW until the strikes this year. Then looking back I would say the real turning point was the strike of 1998. The UAW was all greed in that strike. GM should have been making money when they were selling large SUVs faster than IHop sells pancakes. The UAW has not allowed GM to make a decent profit for decades. Every time GM gets a break and has a vehicle that a few folks want, they strike the plant. That is not a Team player. It is totally selfish on the part of the UAW. I feel for all the people that are impacted by the lack of new car sales. Including my good friend that lost his job at the big Ford agency here in San Diego. I just get the distinct feeling that the only people that are important in the auto industry are the UAW workers & retirees. They helped get this Congress and the new President elected and the rest of US have to reward them. The only way for GM to survive is Chapter 11, by cleaning out the dead weight in all parts of the company. Getting rid of all the UAW work rules that do not pertain to safety. Get a realistic health care program. etc etc. We have family in Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky and Michigan. I don't want to see them destitute and moving out here to sponge off of me. So the sooner the bankruptcy gets started to sooner GM can become profitable. |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Dec 22, 2008 12:16 am)  How about a bloated cancerous tumor in the butt of the big three? The time for the mob mentality of labor Unions was spent to good use in the '40's. Now they are really just a malignacy. No better than the Mob holding a firebomb to the face of a shop keeper to pay a "security fee". It's time the auto assemblers get over them selves or they should be replaced by minium wage workers who won't mind working. |
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Replying to: steve_ (Dec 22, 2008 8:18 am) Is that the cost of assembling the parts as an automobile or is it the total cost of labor, as in the labor of making the seats, the steering wheel, the dashboard, the rearview mirror, the tires, and all the parts in the car as well as assembling the car? Maybe this has been answered somewhere, but I missed it if it has been mentioned.
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Replying to: lokki (Dec 22, 2008 6:46 am) Engineering at Boeing and Bell Helicopter are union/UAW. The fast growing higher education is also being unionized in major universities at a rapid pace. I know that there is a highly skills trade part to the Big Three whom are union. They make/repair tooling, fixtures, dies, molds, robotics, and other means of production to get to the end product. Trust me you don't even want to see the skills trades hourly rate, but generally its $10 an hour over the national agreement. I have dealt with these young eager engineers full of piss and vinegar. Both union and non union ready to set the world on fire. They learn quick, do great work, and are an American asset. In the corporate environment something happens where they transform and or morph into just employees. No different than that autoworker who comes in wanting to do a great job. Doing whatever he/she can to better their lot in life and that of their family. I hate to call it burn out, but many companies deal with this. Its the companies responsibility and to their benefit to keep its assets (employees) productive. As for the current state of the economy - there's plenty of blame to go around for both parties, but both Bush and McCain tried to institute reforms back in 2003 and 2005. Democrats (including and specifically Barney Frank) blocked those efforts. Additionally, the whole sub prime market was generated by the Carter administration and then expanded by the Clinton administration. The Reagan legacy is deregulation and ends with the Phil Gramm ENRON loophole prior to congress going into their recess in 2000. There is a quoted speech by GW Bush taking credit for the housing boom and his continuing efforts to remove such barriers as down payments. We could go on into the ethics of Gramm's wife being on the ENRON payroll and the rational behind the FED lowering interest rates after the dot com bust, but we could never convince you that the GOP are not the conservatives they claim. The classical liberal is been made to mean something bad, when they by nature are the real deregulates, hands off lassie faire, let the markets decide, no bail outs party. This is but a rerun of the S&L bail out the big fish/lobby. Yes, Honda and Toyota are both losing money. The difference between them and GM however, is that their expenses go down when their income goes down. Japanese workers are paid comparatively low salaries, but substantial bonuses. ( You will recall this is the same system that is used by the Japanese employers in the states). In good times the bonuses are large. In bad times, the bonuses disappear and the wage costs go down. Admission is the first step to recovery. Its economics 101 that the autos and housing are the first to go into recession and the first to recover. The process has been delayed by silly gimmicks, Zero down, employee pricing, red tag sale, to name a few. These do nothing but prolong the inevitable. Those who get in on these deals/gimmicks/promotions more than likely have a used car which is likely to be traded in. Hence, we glut the used car market (remember once you drive that new off the lot, its used). To reduce inventory deals/gimmicks/promotions/rebates are used to entice buyers. $5 dollar subs at Subway aren't going to make them much profit, however, they are only intended to weather the down cycle/keep the doors open for the better days to come. The car business is not any different. They have relied on leasing to move inventory. Leasing comes with the residual and or the assets value at some future date. So high gas prices affected this residual value. Its not very hard to imagine what some of these gas guzzling SUV's lost in value. Only a fool would go on to pay the residual value, so the bank or note holder is stuck with a bad investment, the market is glutting, hence the prices of these and all autos (foreign and domestic) take a hit, the banks now have to sell these assets and lick their wounds. Adding insult to injury, since they have other assets decreasing in value as well (housing). To fuel this economy, they seek help from govt, lower interest rates, rebates, tax incentives, bail outs, and anything to put out the fire. Remember, each percentage point the interest rate increases, that many fewer buyers and or qualified buyers on the market at any given time. Then too we must remember that interest rates are used to fight inflation (rising prices) and its not too wise to use them as a stimulus too much (were almost at zero). The only weapon left for govt is fiscal policy (congress spending). Too much govt spending may also cause a devalued dollar as oppose to other currencies. My solution for Detroit? It's simple. GM should be forced into bankruptcy, and reorganized. I am reluctant to diminish the pensions of those who have already retired, but the current system is unsustainable. A cost benefit of unemployment benefits/pension dumping/social services/loss of tax revenue/Wall Street and whatever else would be interesting on something this big and or that effects this many people. You don't even have any idea of the ripple effect of letting this happen. current system is unsustainable Are we forgetting that during the S&L bail out, Donald J. Trump, Trammell Crow, Hall Financial Group, and many more were too big to liquidate. They paid back all that money and in fact made billions after-wards. Chrysler Corp in 1979, Lockheed in 1971 and New York City in 1975. Yes, Honda and Toyota are both losing money. The difference between them and GM Any fool would have rather had GM stock during more years than those of Toyota/Honda. Its not even close. At the moment, for a time period, GM looks bad to some and very cheap to others. Honda/Toyota may look god to some and bad to others. Lets examine the GM history and all these unprofitable years. Then too you fail to mention the fact that GM purchased EDS for about 4 billion and sold it for near 28 billion. When G.M. shareholders approved the spin-off of EDS years ago, the company's $2.5 billion purchase was worth $27.6 billion. And after paying $5 billion for Hughes in 1985, G.M. has since sold its pieces for $9.5 billion to Raytheon, $3.75 billion to Boeing, and, in its latest deal, Echo Star will pay $26 billion. General Motors sells 51% stake in General Motors Acceptance (GMAC) to Cerberus Capital Management, Citigroup and Aozora consortium for US$14bn in 2006 GM sells 78% stake in GMAC Commercial Holding (its commercial mortgage arm) to KKR, Five Mile Capital Partners and Goldman Sachs consortium for US$8.8bn in 2006 GM agrees to sell 17.4% stake in Suzuki for US$1.98bn in 2006 GM sells Avis in 1996 GM also aquired the AM general Hummer business, which is a cash cow in the military business today Free advise: a smart man would look at the
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Replying to: imidazol97 (Dec 22, 2008 8:50 am) I don't think a break down of total labor has been posted. I see cost from $1500 to $3000 per car as legacy costs. I am assuming that is the price for retiree health care. Pensions should not be tacked on as there is a fully funded pension plan to pay those costs. That means that somewhere around 10% is just legacy cost. Another question. Does it take that much more labor to build a $30k PU truck than it does a $20k Malibu? Or a $70k Escalade vs a $45k Denali Yukon? |
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Replying to: dallasdude1 (Dec 22, 2008 9:03 am) We could ramble all day about totally irrelevant issues to the collapse of the Big 3 and what part the UAW is playing in that collapse. Why is Gramm's wife so important and Dingell's wife with her high paid do nothing job at GM never mentioned? Could it be you have been so biased against the GOP that you believe the Dems are above reproach? You have pointed out all the assets the GM has sold over the last few years. Yet they still had $72 billion in losses over the same 4 years. Must be doing something wrong. Selling controlling interest in GMAC may have been real dumb now that no one wants to carry a lease on GM vehicles. Could it be that GM is paying for their ignorance in buckling under to the thug tactics of the UAW over the last 10 years? You do not make a good case for the UAW holding onto the status quo.
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