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Vans & Minivans 2008 Minivans 
1261 messages, Last post on Feb 27, 2008 at 7:47 AM
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Replying to: bobw3 (Nov 29, 2007 1:31 pm) I believe that honesty is the issue here -- and if you can find me the link between being a "professional" and being honest, I'd love to see it. I thought we all had had our fill of dishonesty within the media filled with self seeking ulterior motivated individuals. How about dishonest professionals too. I have already displayed how wrong media can be. Here is another example. I'm sure you have seen the Edmunds comparison between the 08 DGC STS verses the 07 Odyssey. You might notice how they pan the braking on the DGC claiming it was too soft, too weak, and one had to press too hard. Yet if you read the Honda Odyssey braking problems board I see complaints about the Odyssey brakes being too soft. Interesting discrepancy. But I believe all the posters. I suspect braking "softness" and "efficiency" are subjective issues in which drivers both "professional" and "amateur" may be biased. Just how does one become a "professional reviewer"? Is there a college course for this? What qualifiers do they have to have to secure that job? I think you will find that your own judgment is the best. You are the most concerned about your family than they are so do your best and make the best judgments you can knowing your motives are the purest. You won't lose your job if your review doesn't please anyone else.
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In the January, 2008 issue of CR, there is a "CR Auto Test Extra" of the 2008 CLLC minivans. I will quote verbatim some of the comments. "We also tested two of Chrysler's redesigned minivans, the best selling (not so far for 2007-author's note)Dodge Grand Caravan and its twin, the Chrysler Town and Country. Both of these 2008 models proved to be disappointing in our tests. Although these new models are an improvement over those they replaced, they don't measure up to better competitors such as the Toyota Sienna, Honda Odyssey, Kia Sedona or Nissan Quest." CR rated the minivans in order of rankings and the CLLC models were 6 and 7 out of 8. Highs: Access, interior flexibility, interior features. Lows: Lack of grip and agility, braking, engine noise, fuel economy, complicated optional audio system. "The redesigned Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town and Country are better than the models they replace. Despite some notable new features, though, they haven't risen to the level needed to compete against better models from Japan and South Korea. In our tests they score better than only the soon to be discontinued Chevrolet Uplander." "The top-level and newer 251-horsepower, 4.0 liter V6 in our Chrysler is quieter than the 197-horsepower, 3.8 liter V6 in our Dodge, but both whine noisily under acceleration." "We were disappointed with handling. The vehicles' vague and imprecise steering requires the driver to make constant small corrections while cornering. Body lean is pronounced even when taking a corner moderately fast, and the tires squeal even in normal driving. In our emergency maneuver, both vehicles felt clumsy and began to lose grip early. Stabilty control kept them on course but their maximum speeds through the course were lower than of the previous Grand Caravan. Stopping distances were long, especially on wet pavement." There are many more comments, some very good, good and negative so I would suggest reading the entire article. |
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Replying to: maryh3 (Nov 29, 2007 2:34 pm) And I'm not talking about 2008, but over the past several years, where many different reviews, surveys, etc., all put the Odyssey & Sienna at the top of the list. Was everyone biased or worried about losing their jobs and if so...why? And it's the history of the Odyssey & Sienna as being the best that the T&C has to overcome. The same with the quality history. It takes more than a couple of good years for Chrysler and more than a couple of bad ones for Honda & Toyota to make a difference. And you have to look at the whole line offered by a company. The Civic, Accord, Fit, Pilot are all high quality vehicles. The Sebring, Cruiser, Pacifica? |
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I suppose, if you had evidence, you could convince me that a single reviewer might be biased. But are we really supposed to believe that EVERY professional reviewer is biased? Why? That makes no sense? What is their motive? In the case of some of the big name car mags, the individual who writes the review is quite public---you know their names, even sometimes their pictures. You can track down and read everything they write. Over time, I've read dozens of reviews from certain professional reviewers. Its just not credible to me to suggest these guys are biased with no evidence proving your case. Especially not ALL of them. Professional reviewers drive thousands of miles in a variety of vehicles. They have a better sense of how vehicles compare to each other because they drive far more of them than the average owner does. They generally put substantial miles on each vehicle they test so its not like they're only driving it once or twice. They spend days with these cars on tracks and learn how they react in certain situations. Am I saying you should take what a professional says as gospel and ignore your own instincts? Of course not. What I'm saying is that over time, certain trends and characteristics become obvious, and in the case of minivans, the Odyssey, and to a lesser extent, the Sienna have emerged time after time as winners. That does mean something.
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Nov 29, 2007 6:09 pm) I am now stuck with a 2006 Sienna LE that I do NOT like as well as my former, less expensive T&C LX because the Trade-in value of the Sienna has not been good. DON'T believe the reviews of the "professional" reviewers. I had considered trading it on an Odyssey but since the "professional" reviewers have been so wrong with their praise of the Sienna, I am afraid the Odyssey will not be any better than the Sienna. 
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Replying to: hansienna (Nov 29, 2007 6:44 pm)  The trade in value of the Sienna is better than anything but the Ody in this class. Check out what you're looking at with the Sedona or even the DGC... Frankly, the professional reviews of the Sienna I've read haven't been all that positive, especially in turns of driving dynamics. I read everything I could get my hands on. To top it off, you've got the old engine in your Sienna, I believe...not the 3.5 which is the most-praised part of the Sienna. And you've got an LE, which lacked auto climate and a bunch of other features. I probably wouldn't love it either.
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Nov 29, 2007 7:49 pm) |
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Nov 29, 2007 7:49 pm) I'm not sure exactly what package he got, but he paid $29k for an LE in Colorado. Today that money buys you an XLE with a few options. He complained when his dealer low-balled him on a wholesale trade-in value, yet he could try to sell it on his own and get more money for it. Of course a dealer will low-ball you, they have to make a profit on used cars! So really, his was a case of bad timing. He bought it when prices were high, and compares that to resale when rebates exist on the new ones, and of course he's looking only at the low-ball wholesale offer. This is not representative at all, however. When I shopped, a new Sienna LE pkg 2 was $24.7k and a 2 year old used one with 30k miles was $21k. Same dealer, apples to apples, retail price comparison. As is obvious, residual values are very strong when you compare today's new prices with today's used prices. Automotive Lease Guide gives the Sienna 4 stars for residual values: https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx Sienna and Ody tie for the best among minivans. Note that the Dodge scored poorly BUT that score is likely to improve with the new models. If we look at the Ody, back in May, a new 2007 Ody EX was $26.8k. Today the same van sells for $23k new. If you bought the van in May, your residuals just got slammed, too. A 6 month old EX has to cost less than new one does now, so you can expect your residual to drop. Why? Bad timing. Plain and simple. If you get a bargain on a 2007 now, your actual residual will be very strong. Much better than it would have been if you had bought the same van back in May. Timing is everything. Now, let's say you're shopping for a new T&C. Right when the new ones come out. You want to be the first on the block, so you pay MSRP for the very first one. Then compare that to the patient person who waits for the incentives to show up, and that person gets the same van for, say, $3000 less. Again, it's all about the timing. If you're shopping for a van, follow the pricing market, track the trends. Back in May, I got a $1250 rebate on the Sienna. That was the best bargain at the time. Ody had no incentives. I timed it right and got the Sienna. Right now, IMO the Ody is the best bargain. Dealers have a $2000 incentive. You can get a better deal on an 07 Ody, because the 07 Siennas are mostly gone. So if you are timing the market, get a bargain on the Ody today. I would not buy an 08 Sienna right now because the rebates are small and will likely grow. Bad timing. For the Dodge and Chrysler, again, it's a new model and rebates right now are small. I bet that a year from now, people will be paying less than you would pay today.
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To show you guys what I'm talking about, here is my price tracking for the 2007 Sienna, which I did for about 5 months. These were the no-haggle prices on the very same model 2007 Sienna LE package 3: January, right at the launch: $26,698 (no rebate, BAD timing, be patient!) Feb. 12, $500 rebate appears, prices drops to $26,337. Feb. 23, price drops again, to $26,137 March 6, price increases to $26,689 (I'm depressed, thinking I missed my chance) April 5, $25,439, must be a bigger rebate, yes! (I decide to check more often) April 20, same price April 30, same price May 2, no change May 10, no change May 14, no change I bought my van on May 22 for $25,247. Note my price tracking strategy ended up saving me almost $1500 with simple patience and good timing. If you did the same price tracking with the 2007 Odyssey, you would have seen that prices didn't drop until later, because Honda introduced the 2008s later in the year. That means the timing is NOW if you are shopping for a 2007. I'll say it again, timing is everything.
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Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 30, 2007 9:10 am) Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda.......... Now is not the time to buy a Chrysler, first model year of a new design, no incentives etc... I have the itch bad, but i'm holding off for 6 months to a year. Toyota is due for redesign for 2010 (i was working on module for it recently), Honda? |
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