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Vans & Minivans 2008 Minivans 
1261 messages, Last post on Feb 27, 2008 at 7:47 AM
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Replying to: hansienna (Oct 06, 2007 8:02 am) Based on reading elsewhere, I think Daimler was responsible for destroying the formerly very attractive door panels and seats on Chrysler minivans in addition to killing Plymouth and watering down the CHRYSLER nameplate. My sister's 1986 Caravan SE had VERY Nice, Attractive door panels and VERY NICE seats. A base 2001-2007 SE became an "el-cheapo" that looks like it was made by Daewoo, Yugo, or Trabant. They did take a lot off the newer ones (2005 0n) but it wasn't just the fault of Daimler. American manufactures are fighting a up hill battle with foreign makes. "It's been hard for Chrysler and American automotive manufactures to compete with the advantages the foreign makers have in profit. They can't put as much in R/D into their vehicles. Foreign makers here are not paying the health care for retirees. Have thousands fewer retirees to pay for. Not paying as much in health care, because their employees are younger. Got many of their new plants at big tax discounts to bring them into these states. Pay lower wages." Japanese widen profit gap over U.S. automakers Associated Press August 8, 2007 Article tools E-mail Share Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Furl Google Newsvine Reddit Spurl Yahoo Print Single page view Reprints Reader feedback Text size: TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. - Japanese automakers widened their profit-making gap over the Big Three domestic automakers last year by 31 percent, according to a study released Tuesday. The profit gap, which already was significant in 2005 at $2,899 per vehicle sold in North America, widened by $915, to $3,814, according to a study of industry costs and profits by Laurie Harbour-Felax, managing director of Stout Risius Ross, a Chicago-based financial and operational advisory firm. The study, made public at an automotive industry conference, found that while General Motors Corp. had improved its efficiency and cut production costs, the nation's largest automaker and its Detroit counterparts, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, still have a long way to go to match the profits of Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. GM cut its loss per vehicle in North America to $146 in 2006 from $1,271 in 2005, largely because of cost cuts that included the departure of more than 34,000 hourly workers to buyout and early retirement offers. It also is saving money on efforts to design cars and trucks globally, by increasing the number of parts common to all of its vehicles and by purchasing parts on a global basis, Harbour-Felax said. "GM has done the most from this as you look at their whole product lineup," she said. Still, GM made $2,123 less per vehicle than Toyota in 2006, according to the report. Toyota, the most profitable of all automakers on a per-vehicle basis, increased its profit per vehicle from $1,175 in 2005 to $1,977 in 2006, the report said. The numbers for individual manufacturers are at times lower than the overall gap because they do not include special write-offs, Harbour-Felax said. Ford, while it has made progress on cost cuts, common parts and globalization, still had a $3,939 profit gap in 2006 when compared with Toyota, Harbour-Felax said. Chrysler's profit gap with Toyota averaged $3,088 per vehicle for 2006 mainly because it was "force feeding" the market by selling vehicles with heavy incentives, she said. The labor cost difference between the Big Three and the Japanese automakers amounts to $1,200 to $1,500 per vehicle, Harbour-Felax said. Although the domestic automakers likely are to seek parity with the Japanese in ongoing contract talks with the United Auto Workers, that won't solve all of their problems because labor costs make up only about 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle, she said. The average price of a vehicle in the U.S. last year was $28,451, according to the National Automobile Dealers Association. " |
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I'm just not compelled with arguments to buy American anymore, because all you really are doing is rewarding years of bad financial decisions and captiulating by short sighted unions. I'm vehemently anti-big labor at this point because I believe it is destroying American industry, but the automakers have nobody to blame but themselves for giving in everytime someone threatens a strike. If an American product is superior to a Japanese product, I'll consider it. I can think of some instances where this is the case. Even with the new Chrysler minivans, however, I'm not sure that this segment is one of them. Right now, 07 Odysseys are running under 08 Grand Caravans, and I think the Honda is probably still the superior prodcut, so...
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Oct 06, 2007 5:44 pm) I think the Ody, Sienna, T&C/GC are equally desireable. Each has advantages and disadvantages and each buyer must decide which product best fills his needs. I would like to combine the best features of each into one vehicle. 
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Replying to: hansienna (Oct 06, 2007 8:16 pm) I get your point, but trust me, the American auto industry is not collapsing under its own weight because of greedy CEOs. I haven't yet driven the new GC, but I have looked at it. Perhaps I will revise my statements at some point if I do drive it, but it seems to me that it did NOT pass the Ody and Sienna. Best case, it matched them. And that's been the problem for the Big Three...when's the last time when they launched a product that actually, truly, exceeded its benchmarks on merit alone? I can't think of one...maybe Cadillac is doing it with the CTS right now, but that's really all I can think of. I don't think Chrysler did it in this segment. And even if they do, and they somehow are able to match the average transaction price of the Sienna and Ody, they'll still not make nearly as much money as Honda and Toyota will thanks to years of capitulation to big labor.
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Oct 06, 2007 5:44 pm) If an American product is superior to a Japanese product, I'll consider it. I can think of some instances where this is the case. Even with the new Chrysler minivans, however, I'm not sure that this segment is one of them. Right now, 07 Odysseys are running under 08 Grand Caravans, and I think the Honda is probably still the superior prodcut, so... There seems to be a lot of people not willing to give the American owned automakers a try again or will always believe that foreign vehicles will always be superior. I guess that is your choice. But you can always find something superior with one minivan over the other. In some ways the Honda and Toyota is superior to the Chrysler minivans. In other ways, Chrysler minivans are superior to the Honda and Toyota. I don't think we have to go over the things each one has that the other doesn't, we've discussed it many times. But when you buy American made or owned, you are creating and saving American jobs, completely out side of the automotive industry. Maybe even saving your own. Let me put it this way. If we sit down with a calculator and add up how many vans Toyota and Honda sells and figure out the profit they make on each one. You have to believe at least half of that profit is leaving the country, creating jobs in Japan and not in America. Not only that, but very American that has a job with the automobile industry, creates jobs outside of the auto industry. Jobs that you and I have because of them. Because these guys buy furniture, go on vacation, buy insurance, food, eat out, buys cloths, guns, etc. So even if you work for the airlines, department or furniture store, sell insurance, work for the city, county or state, these guys help give us a job. Just look at what the American auto industry can do for just one segment of our industry. It's a trickle down effect in most of our industries, not just this one. The U.S. auto and machine-tool industries are now in the throes of the greatest destruction of human and physical capital in American history http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3250auto_n_nukes.html I just realized this should be in the (Minivan Shopping - Domestic vs. Foreign) thread and not in the 2008. So if your going to answer, that should be the place to put it. |
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Oct 06, 2007 8:25 pm) "Bloated" and "Capitulation" are words used to incite a certain political power base by blaming the actual workers for problems instead of carefully investigating the real cause of a problem. 
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Replying to: hansienna (Oct 07, 2007 8:34 am) You are right though, this discussion should go to another thread so I'll shut up now. Though frankly, the foreign/domestic discussion is redundant to this one because the only competition thread we can have compares domestic to foreign since that's all there is--one Canadian minivan against Japanese and Korean ones.
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Replying to: hansienna (Oct 07, 2007 8:34 am)
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Replying to: mfletou1 (Oct 07, 2007 9:32 am)  Chrysler is headquarted in the USA and T&C / GC are made in Fenton, Missouri, USA; and in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Toyota is headquartered in Japan but the Sienna is made in Indiana, USA. Honda is headquartered in Japan but the Odyssey is made in Alabama, USA after being made in Ontario, Canada for years. |
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