Last post on Dec 03, 2013 at 4:29 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#8183 of 20187 Re: Edmunds' Editors-for-a-Day speak out [backy]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:49 am)
I used to think that, several years ago. I used to think that every Toyota and Honda, whether it was a brand-new design or a mature model, would have stellar reliability. And they did. But then things changed, e.g. 1999 Odyssey... 2001 Civic... Sludge on Toyota engines... 2003 Accord... 2007 Camry. All of these had significant problems.
Since I own one of those 03 Accords (51k miles), I would like to know what these "significant problems" are? Your definition of "significant", and my definition of "minor" must be very similar. I don't think 0$ spent on repairs is considered "significant". Highly exadurated, IMO.
#8184 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [louiswei]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:52 am)
"No you can't. The Impala is not part of this discussion and according to EPA it is a fullsize car. I have no problem agreeing with you that with or without fleet sales Impala is the best selling fullsize car but that's not what we are discussing here aren't we? "
I will say this, to the EPA its not midsize. To consumers it would be since its barely larger than midsizers in this class. I asked a while back if this means the Accord should be banned from this discussion. I did not see a response. GM sells more midsizers even without the Impala so if you only care about EPA classifications it can be removed even though consumers see it as a competitor to the midsizers in this class. Now that I think about it I believe the sonata is also a fullsize car.
The % of fleet sales in 2007 are irrelevant if we dont have the previus year's stats. GM overall has reduced fleet sales. It may not be enough, but it is happening.
#8185 of 20187 Re: Edmunds' Editors-for-a-Day speak out [elroy5]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:54 am)
You know, we've already had this discussion. But if you insist, I consider a recall of over 1 million cars due to a transmission problem that could cause transmission failure (and an accident) to be significant.
When talking about reliability, we can't just talk about the experience of one person, with one car.
#8186 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [louiswei]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:56 am)
"Honda Accord 4.9%
Nissan Altima 16.4%
Toyota Camry 7.7% "
I checked out that table and I see why you didnt show Sonata, Optima, 6 or Galant up there. Honda is out of the discussion because we all know that Honda really doesnt do rentals. I saw something recently about the % increase or decrease in fleet sales in 2007 and the increases for Nissan and Toyota were very large while all of the Big 3 had declines. I think GM was down about 5% or so.
#8187 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [louiswei]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:58 am)
"The Impala is NOT a midsize car, period.
Maybe the host can help us out with this... "
I believe the cutoff is 100 cu ft of interior space. The Impala has over 100 cu ft of room but not by a signifcant margin. The Taurus, 300, Avalon, etc, are far larger inside. As I said, the Sonata and Accord are "large" by EPA standards but most people would consider them midsize cars. I know I do.
#8188 of 20187 Re: Edmunds' Editors-for-a-Day speak out [mrsyj]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:59 am)
Okay, just to make you happy...
Impala commercial fleet sales 15.5%
Camry commercial fleet sales 2.9%
Impala government fleet sales 8.4%
Camry government fleet sales 0.1%
Impala rental fleet sales 30%
Camry rental fleet sales 4.7%
All numbers from first half 2007
#8189 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [mrsyj]
Dec 21, 2007 (12:01 pm)
I know I do.
Are we talking about Accord and Sonata here? The new Accord is only fullsize without the sunroof, with sunroof it is still a midsize.
When you are EPA then we'll talk.
#8190 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [mrsyj]
Dec 21, 2007 (12:04 pm)
I left out the those in the discussion because they never came up in "our" discussion. From the beginning you were focusing on GM vs. Toyota then later on drag in Honda and Nissan. As matter of fact I don't see Sonata, Optima and 6 (the Galant is still around? ) to be major players in our discussion anyway.
#8191 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [louiswei]
Dec 21, 2007 (12:10 pm)
"Are we talking about Accord and Sonata here? The new Accord is only fullsize without the sunroof, with sunroof it is still a midsize.
When you are EPA then we'll talk. "
I thought this topic included the Accord and Sonata? Maybe I am mistaken.
Accord is fullsize without sunroof, that isnt news. My point is can the full size accord not be compared to Altima, Malibu, etc. because of the EPA rating? You are telling me the Impala isnt a midsize car in pricing and consumer perception because of the EPA classification even though it barely qualifies. I guess that applies to Sonata and Accord (w/o sunroof) as well. I mean, who would ever compare a huge full size accord to a smallish midsize camry? Two totally different sizes of cars. According to what you're saying a 99 cu ft car wouldnt be compared to a 102 cu ft car because of the EPA designations of each.
It inconsequential in the end because without the Impala GM comes close to Toyota in midsize sales. I figure about 570k midsize cars for 2007 which should be close to camry/ES350 sales. The Prius is a midsize so that could throw it back in Toyota's favor though. If we say sedans between $20k-$30k GM sells more.
#8192 of 20187 Re: No. 1 prejudice [louiswei]
Dec 21, 2007 (12:14 pm)
"I left out the those in the discussion because they never came up in "our" discussion. From the beginning you were focusing on GM vs. Toyota then later on drag in Honda and Nissan. As matter of fact I don't see Sonata, Optima and 6 (the Galant is still around? ) to be major players in our discussion anyway. "
in a world where only the top sellers count the Malibu, Aura, Fusion, etc. are not major players either. You might as well not talk about any cars outside of Camry and Accord. The Sonata has sales on the same magnitude of Fusion and Malibu and far outsells Aura. I evaluate cars based on price, design, etc. not fleet sales and who has the highest overall sales. If we care about that stuff its pointless to talk about anything not named Camry or accord.
Whenever people bring up fleets as some sort of insult I note that in Europe audi and BMW sell to fleets and people in the US dont seem to care. Why are fleet sales OK as long as the big 3 arent making the sales? Love to know.