Last post on Dec 10, 2013 at 5:02 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#8161 of 20239 Re: Edmunds' Editors-for-a-Day speak out [elroy5]
Dec 21, 2007 (10:49 am)
Don't you think a company who has consistently built reliable cars, will be more likely to produce another reliable car.
I used to think that, several years ago. I used to think that every Toyota and Honda, whether it was a brand-new design or a mature model, would have stellar reliability. And they did. But then things changed, e.g. 1999 Odyssey... 2001 Civic... Sludge on Toyota engines... 2003 Accord... 2007 Camry. All of these had significant problems. Meanwhile, automakers that used to have poor reliability records, such as Ford and Hyundai, have improved greatly (e.g. Fusion/Milan and Sonata).
The point I tried to make earlier is that it's hard to make accurate predictions based on history when conditions change. So if I were to decide between the new Accord and new Malibu, which one do I think will be more reliable? The answer is, I have no idea. The previous-generation Accord was reliable, after some kinks were worked out early on. And the previous-generation Malibu was reliable. Also, GM has made it clear that they have focused on quality and reliability for the new Malibu. So right now I have no idea whether a 2008 Accord will be more reliable than a 2008 Malibu. Ask me in 2-3 years.
P.S. I think one reason the reliability of Toyotas and Hondas has declined is because the U.S. used to get new models only after they had been released in the JDM and maybe other markets for a year or so (or like the Fit, for several years). But lately the U.S. gets new models at the same time as other markets, or we get models that are designed just for us. So there isn't time to work out the bugs from a new design before we get the cars here.
#8162 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [captain2]
Dec 21, 2007 (10:53 am)
It will take awhile naturally, and I'm not sure that Detroit can afford to wait to be 'rediscovered'.- the Japanese mfgrs. got to where they are the old fashioned way -they earned it. Is that prejudice or simply history?
Agree. It will take quite a while for Detroit to be "rediscovered" and there may not be enough time (or credit). The Asian companies have a solid lock on the mid-size segment and are not about to relinquish it either. I think a majority of the mid-size buyers are automatically pre-disposed to buying an Accord or Camry by virtue of their track record, which includes total sales.
Today's Detroit offerings are definitely more competitive than they have been in the past but it may be a case of too little, too late.
#8163 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [urnews]
Dec 21, 2007 (10:58 am)
"Today's Detroit offerings are definitely more competitive than they have been in the past but it may be a case of too little, too late. "
I disagree. The Impala is on pace to sell 300k copies this year which is more than Altima. Yes fleets are part of that but the bottom line is people will buy American nameplates when they like the vehicle. There is a difference between lacking a bestseller and lacking any traction in a particular segment. For example, GM lacks a best seller in this class but they sell more midsize sedans than Toyota does. When you look at it that way it really contradicts the whole "everyone has given up on domestic vehicles" argument.
#8164 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [urnews]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:04 am)
a fully transferable 7-year/75,000-mile warranty would be a better selling point.
Unfortunately, that would be a selling point to only those who can apply a perspective. You and I may be, but most folks are going to be more "moved" by a 100K mile warranty even if they won't get to that point before their car is five years old.
#8165 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [mrsyj]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:06 am)
For example, GM lacks a best seller in this class but they sell more midsize sedans than Toyota does.
What is your source for that tidbit?
#8166 of 20239 Re: Edmunds' Editors-for-a-Day speak out [elroy5]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:07 am)
"I'm talking about new design vs. new design. Don't you think a company who has consistently built reliable cars, will be more likely to produce another reliable car. "
I dont think so. As time goes on cars are built in different places, designed by different people and made with parts from different suppliers. People fail to grasp how similar Toyota and Honda have become to domestic manufacturers. Think about it, how could the Asian transplants have infallible quality if they are designing vehicles in the US with US engineers, building the cars in US plants with Americans and using suppliers (although not to the degree of the Big 3) based in the US that also supply the Big 3. Similar workers, engineers and suppliers yield similar results. I knew someone who was into Hondas who told a long time ago that there was a difference in quality between US made hOndas and those imported. Dont know if that is true but it is conceivable. I never assume that any car from an import manufacturer is guaranteed to be better. When the Fusion came out I'm sure people were saying it would never measure up in quality based on Ford's reputation but they would've been wrong. I have heard of too many issues with imports to believe that they are as reliable as some claim. I also question how others who swear by imports have NEVER come across similar stories from other owners. To me that says that import owners are more forgiving of issues than they would be if the problems existed on a domestic.
#8167 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [mrsyj]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:08 am)
Yes fleets are part of that
That's an understatement. How about fleet sales are a major part of that.
Also, I don't know about the "GM sells more midsize sedans than Toyota does" statement. First of all, the Impala is NOT a midsize sedan, it is a full size. Second, I don't have the numbers with me but I believe the combined sales number of the Malibu, Aura, G6 and LaCrosse is still less than Camry, and that's including fleet sales!!
#8168 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [urnews]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:12 am)
"What is your source for that tidbit? "
Add the numbers up. GM sells about 70-75k midsize sedans a month if we count the Impala. Lets not forget they make a lot more midsize models than Toyota does. Chevy alone sells about as many Impalas/Malibus as Toyota sells camry. And lets not forget that Toyota adds Solara sales to the Camry when GM never did the same for Impala and Monte carlo. Toyota may sell more cars if you factor in the corolla, but I'm not sure. The press and domestic car bashers like to focus on best sellers only but all GM cars count in the sales column for GM just like the camry counts for Toyota. If Gm needs 3 cars to battle and outsell camry than so be it. Lots of people are going to make a big deal out of the Malibu if it doesnt outsell the Camry but it CANT because there isnt enough production capacity. Few vehicles have production capacity in excess of 300k units like Accord and Camry. If we look at GM's epsilon cars as a whole they should come close to camry sales next year. I figure the G6 will be good for 140k, Malibu for 200k-250k and Aura for 70k units next year.
#8169 of 20239 Re: Edmunds' Editors-for-a-Day speak out [mrsyj]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:16 am)
Similar workers, engineers and suppliers yield similar results.
True, but different philosophy and amount of the resources contributed to the product make the difference. You can have the best engineers, workers and suppliers in the world but if the boss has an idea of "I'll just make a so-so car with minimum resource" then you are not going to get the best product.
In my opinion ultimately it's the philosophy that changes the outcome.
#8170 of 20239 Re: No. 1 prejudice [louiswei]
Dec 21, 2007 (11:16 am)
"Also, I don't know about the "GM sells more midsize sedans than Toyota does" statement. First of all, the Impala is NOT a midsize sedan, it is a full size. Second, I don't have the numbers with me but I believe the combined sales number of the Malibu, Aura, G6 and LaCrosse is still less than Camry, and that's including fleet sales!! "
Then exclude the Accord, its a full size sedan. The Impala is a midsize based on pricing. Anyone looking at a Camry or Accord would consider the Impala comparable in space and peformance. The Impala is barely a midsize anyway by EPA standards. as for the sales, they speak for themselves.
At the end of this year the cars you mentioned should sell about 340k copies. Not quite on the level of camry but not bad considering the Malibu was in the last year of a generation for 10 months of the year. Next year that number should be closer ot 400k.