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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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What is this discussion about? Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 776 of 1819

#7743 of 18177 Disappointment by urnews

Dec 01, 2007 (11:31 am)

I originally began participating in this mid-size forum because I wanted to learn more about mid-size car offerings even though we had already purchased a 2007 V6 SEL AWD Fusion ($27,105 MSRP). I am retired and spend a lot of time reading on the Internet.
 
Lately, it seems, the overwhelming majority of the posts are about warranties, revolutions per minute and the age-old domestic-versus-Asian brands. Whatever happened to posts about a car's features? Likes and dislikes? In order words, posts about the cars themselves?
 
Given their long list of features and pluses, I am surprised that the Fusion/Milan twins have not become the best-selling mid-size cars in the USA. I guess it will take a while longer for that to happen, if ever.
 
Today, it is safe to say, the Camcords are the benchmarks in the mid-size market but the competition is keen and getting more so.
 
One trend I don't care for is the move to larger wheels and shorter (but fatter) tires. Our Fusion came with 17 X 7.5 alloy wheels with 225-50R-17 Michelin Pilot tires. These things are terribly expensive and I think 16-inch wheels with 215-60R-16 tires would probably ride better. More and more cars are going to 18-inch wheels, too. What's the purpose here? Anybody know?
 
I'm so old I remember when manufactures went from standard 15-inch wheels to 14-inchers. That was a change made on the 1957 Fords, if I recall correctly. In time, the wheels grew back to 15 inches, then 16 and now 17s are commonplace. I just don't get it.
 
Recently took a 340-mile round trip in the AWD Fusion and averaged 24 mpg, exactly what the revised EPA estimate says even though I drove 65 to 75 mph most of the time. Our average speed (which included a 15-minute doughnut stop) was 59 mph for six-plus hours of traveling time. The Fusion really rides nice. It's a pleasure to drive on trips but I still think our old 1997 Thunderbird rides even better. Our 2000 Ford Focus station wagon isn't half bad either. The bird is a full-size car and the Focus is a compact, so that probably accounts for the differences.
 
Guess my wife and I are among the few people in the world who have never owned a Honda or Toyota, although we have owned three Mazda products: a GLC compact, a B2000 pickup and a Miata MX5 convertible.
 
We're approaching our one-year anniversary, Dec. 4, with the Fusion and not a single problem, squeak or rattle at 6,000-plus miles. Hope this trend continues for a long time. There's only the two of us for three vehicles but all get driven to some degree, but only a couple times a week for the T-bird, which still delivers 14-15 mpg in all-city driving with its 3.8-liter V6. The Fusion is a lot peppier even though it is a 3.0-liter V6.
 
Yeah, I know, the 3.0 Duratec is not particularly fast when compared to the Honda and Toyota V6s but it is more than adequate for us and any average driver. The six-speed automatic transmission is a really nice feature but we really don't have any need for the AWD.
 
We live in a small city of about 30,000 people and I have yet to see another AWD Fusion on the road here. Not too surprising since we rarely get much snow.

#7744 of 18177 Re: Honda I-4 RPM's at 70/80 MPH [phaetondriver] by robertsmx

Dec 01, 2007 (12:11 pm)

Replying to: phaetondriver (Dec 01, 2007 12:32 am)
Based on your claims, it seems you are at least twice as old as I. So, the last thing I expect from you is to lack perspective that comes from experience and observation. Spin artistry isn’t needed to figure out what works. Unless you want to make this a pissing contest, and your post #7612 was a pretty good start at that. And when that didn’t work, you went ahead with “warranty”. Are you a car sales person? You sure sound like the many I have experienced. But, let me address some of your issues and help see the light.
 
I compared the engines with the note about same materials and maintenance, but you missed that, several times.
 
One must have really good reason to use live examples, draw conclusions (much less marked as “facts”) and then throw in a disclaimer about “all things being equal”. When they are not equal, you don’t make a comparison like this. You make a point. But, I might have just gone way over your head.
 
I never said or inferred that Honda motors were less reliable because Honda only warrants them for 5/60K. I said nothing even close to that. I asked why they don't offer a longer warranty. I was told that warranties are just marketing trying to entice new customers and have nothing to do with reliability.
 
You shouldn’t assume that people reading your posts and responding to them are idiots. It is what spin artists actually do. I, like the rest of the world, figured out from your post (#7680) that you were making a point on 5-year/60K mile warranty in terms of durability. You weren’t simply asking for information. You were, once again, drawing a comparison. In your words:
"Oh! BTW, Why is the Honda Powertrain Limited Warranty (years/miles) = 5/60,000. and the Cadillac/Aura XR for 5 years, or 100,000 miles/160,000 kms?"
 
Let me answer your question here: “because they have earned the rights and can afford to”. Companies aren’t in business to do social service. They aren't doing you a favor by providing long warranties. Are they?
 
If Honda doesn't use warranties to entice new customers, why on earth would they need one for their used car.
 
Had you given some thought to my previous post(s) on the subject, you would have felt the need to ask the question again (and call my post a “spin”). So, allow me to help.
 
I am no marketing genius but can certainly analyze situations and that lead me to have an opinion that simply building new cars and ignoring used car market is a short sighted approach. On the surface, it may seem trivial to consider older cars having an impact but reputation is built on the past, not in the present or using the future.
 
Companies like Honda have earned the respect of folks (who happen to be among the most loyal buyers). No company is perfect, but it is easier to believe in a recognized brand. So, their new products sell with an average new car warranty. People aren’t too worried about it. Ten years and 184K miles ago, I wasn’t. And many won’t keep their cars for more than 3-4 years. Many more will trade in around 5-6 years. Quite a few will keep them till the wheels fall off.
 
But, a progressive company can’t live with a tunnel vision selling only new cars. They must also worry about keeping the value of older cars high which, in turn, helps sell newer cars. You might think that resale is simply about hype. If true, why doesn’t everybody use it?
 
Used cars have to be able to compete and offer more than a lower price. If only reduced price were to be the selling point, it only gets worse with heavily discounted new cars. And this has a cascading effect. Prepare a list of companies that have, and currently, offer longest warranties, and you might see a trend.
 
For Honda, an average warranty is all that is needed to sell new cars. So, the company has freedom to offer more on its used car, and make them competent against new cars, not only from within the brand but competing brands too. The more isn’t simply limited to a lower price tag, but longer warranty. Now a person may have a choice to buy a new Accord for $20K (60K), or a slightly used on for $18K with a much longer warranty (80-90K). I know, because a friend just went thru the exercise. Think about it, especially if you want to continue this discussion. It will help discuss cars, not political affiliations.
 
Heck, both Honda and GM warranties are for 5 years anyway and I will see 5 years long before the car sees 100K miles. Now spin that

 
Spin is already out there, as you have bought it. The more amusing aspect of the picture I'm getting is that not only did you buy the spin, you don't see a point to it, that "5-years" is what you will see before you get to 100K miles. That would be true for most folks. So, next time, take a look at GM's commercials around the warranty. "100K miles" gets the priority, and "5-years" (usually shown as the "second number") is also left unspoken in the audio. You know why? Thats marketing. Spin? Probably not to you, because you can't see it that way while I shake my head.

#7745 of 18177 Re: Disappointment [urnews] by robertsmx

Dec 01, 2007 (12:19 pm)

Replying to: urnews (Dec 01, 2007 11:31 am)
One trend I don't care for is the move to larger wheels and shorter (but fatter) tires. Our Fusion came with 17 X 7.5 alloy wheels with 225-50R-17 Michelin Pilot tires. These things are terribly expensive and I think 16-inch wheels with 215-60R-16 tires would probably ride better. More and more cars are going to 18-inch wheels, too. What's the purpose here? Anybody know?
 
It has little to do with anything but the "Tonka truck" kid in us. Most folks want huge tires without regard to its downsides. So, I completely agree with you. In fact, last night a friend of mine and I walked out of a restaurant and she pointed at an ugly car. I looked over and it was Rolls Royce Phantom. I told her those cars aren't supposed to be called ugly.
 
She said, "there's something about those wheels, they look too big". I had to agree but with the point that smaller wheels on that body might not look decent (for a moment I thought, I was contradicting myself, and I was).
 
There is something wrong when a mainstream Honda Civic has a wheel that is larger than a higher trim Accord from 6-7 years ago. It can't be about performance either. If cars like NSX and S2000 (including the track ready, CR model) never needed 18" rims, why does a Civic (Mugen Si)?
 
Its all about looks, with little to no consideration given to sensibility. And those things not only add weight (a size up might end up adding 30-40 lb total, all else being equal), they also reduce drive train efficiency.

#7746 of 18177 Re: a strange discussion [lilengineerboy] by autokritiker

Dec 01, 2007 (1:40 pm)

Replying to: lilengineerboy (Dec 01, 2007 8:50 am)
My co-worker's late-80s LeSabre had 220-something when he stuffed it into a Jeep. That engine has been around forever. IIRC, it was in Grand Nationals, and the turbo Pontiac T/A, in addition to the mundane stuff.
 
Speaking of the Grand National, what a car! That car had a single-turbocharged GM 3800 V6, and in it's last production year as the "GNX" in 1987, it produced a factory claimed 276 horsepower and 360 lb-ft of torque (many believe that those numbers were conservative).
 
The '87 GNX ran 0-60 in 4.7 seconds. That's as fast, or a couple tenths faster, than the Porsche 911 Turbo of the 1980's! Today, a nice example of a Grand National/GNX will sell for $30,000 to $40,000.
 
The 3800 is really a tough engine, and can run 200K to 300K+ miles with just routine maintanence. GM transmissions are also very durable.

#7747 of 18177 Re: Disappointment [robertsmx] by urnews

Dec 01, 2007 (1:44 pm)

Replying to: robertsmx (Dec 01, 2007 12:19 pm)
Its all about looks, with little to no consideration given to sensibility. And those things not only add weight (a size up might end up adding 30-40 lb total, all else being equal), they also reduce drive train efficiency.
 
Your thoughts mirror my own on this crazy wheel topic. I think the 20, 21 and even 22-inch wheels that you see on some cars just look weird (ugly?) but they are popular among certain groups.
 
I think I would prefer 16-inch wheels on our Fusion rather than the 17s it came with. I know that will be the case when it comes time to replace the Michelins.

#7748 of 18177 Re: Disappointment [urnews] by backy

Dec 01, 2007 (1:52 pm)

Replying to: urnews (Dec 01, 2007 11:31 am)
Today, it is safe to say, the Camcords are the benchmarks in the mid-size market but the competition is keen and getting more so.
 
I don't know that it is safe to say that anymore, at least in terms of professional opinion. Three examples:
 
1) In C/D's last comparo of mid-sized sedans, three cars outscored the new Camry: the prior-gen Accord, the new Altima, and the Optima. That the new Camry finished fourth compared to a five-year-old Accord, the Nissan, and a Kia (which was lauded for having higher quality than the Camry) is telling IMO.
 
2) MT just evaluated the Accord and Malibu head-to-head for their COTY review, and the Malibu outscored the Accord.
 
3) It is rumored (not yet officially announced to my knowledge) that the Malibu joins the Accord in C/D's 10Best for 2008.
 
There are some other indicators as well, e.g. the Fusion/Milan and Sonata outscoring the Camry V6 in predicted reliability according to CR, and the venerable Mazda6 being named by Edmunds.com as their Most Wanted Sedan under $25k, over the previous-gen Accord, new Camry, et. al.
 
So I don't think the Accord and Camry have a lock on being benchmarks for this class anymore. And we have yet to see the all-new 2009 Mazda6, which is winning raves in Europe, and the reworked 2009 Sonata. Still more tough competition for the Camcord.

#7749 of 18177 Re: Disappointment [backy] by kdshapiro

Dec 01, 2007 (1:57 pm)

Replying to: backy (Dec 01, 2007 1:52 pm)
I agree, the Accord is still the benchmark. One can put a spin on it, but the Malibu, Altima, Aura still have a big brother to look up to. COTY has nothing to do with anything. Ford Thunderbird was COTY, so what?

#7750 of 18177 Re: Warranties [robertsmx] by backy

Dec 01, 2007 (2:08 pm)

Replying to: robertsmx (Dec 01, 2007 12:10 am)
Honda and Toyota are hardly unique in offering extended warranties on their "certified" used cars. Some manufacturers' certified used car warranties even exceed those of Honda and Toyota; e.g. Honda and Toyota offer 7 years, 100k miles of powertrain warranty on certified used cars, and Hyundai offeres 10 years, 100k miles. It appears to me that manufacturers such as Hyundai back their used cars better than do Honda and Toyota. If Honda and Toyota really cared as much as you claim they do about backing up their used cars, wouldn't they at least match if not exceed what Hyundai offers?

#7751 of 18177 Re: Disappointment [kdshapiro] by backy

Dec 01, 2007 (2:11 pm)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Dec 01, 2007 1:57 pm)
So what? I didn't just talk about one COTY award. There's a pattern developing here. Multiple professional reviewers are saying that the Accord and (especially) the Camry are no longer the standalone benchmarks in their class. It's not spin, but facts.
 
P.S. Thunderbird was a COTY when there was a separate award for U.S. cars and foreign cars, wasn't it? And at one time, the Thunderbird was a pretty nice car in its class.

#7752 of 18177 Re: Honda I-4 RPM's at 70/80 MPH [robertsmx] by phaetondriver

Dec 01, 2007 (2:16 pm)

Replying to: robertsmx (Dec 01, 2007 12:11 pm)
Very good reply, I applaud your good nature and that you didn't read anything I wrote incorrectly this time. Maybe I was finally able to make myself clear. I appreciate your tone of voice this time as well.
I really do enjoy a good discussion with differing points of view, as long as both parties get the real point of the other. We finally made that point in this thread, though the host may be ready to through us both out of here. I apologize to everyone for the length and direction this one took, it wasn't my intent.
 
For the record, I am not a car salesman, though I did sell Chrysler products back in the mid 80's. I made more money selling extended warranties than selling cars.
I did not buy my Aura XR because of the Warranty, in fact I didn't pay any attention to it at all. I bought it because of the 3.6 L DOHC 252 HP engine, 6 Speed Auto with manual mode and the suspension system. All, as compared to other cars in it's class. I never considered the Accord V6 in the same class when shopping, I considered the Acura, Lexus ES330, Toyota Camry V6, Nissan Altima, Malibu LTZ, and Pontiac G6.
I drove them all, some I rented for a weekend. When I was done, it was the Aura XR, that came out on top for comfort and performance/handling, and price (lowest) over them all.
 
I

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