Last post on Dec 10, 2013 at 5:10 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#7182 of 20238 Re: Lighter cars - Sustainable Zoom Zoom [captain2]
Nov 12, 2007 (9:41 am)
I believe the HP deficit in the Fusion was 'promised' to be fixed for the 2008 MY, true?
The Fusion was never targeted for any new regular engines for 2008. The hybrid was targeted for the 08 model year when it debuted 2 years ago but that got pushed back to 09 (next fall).
While Ford has had a history of delayed product launches and being slow to market, a lot of the current delays are a direct result of improved management reversing earlier bad decisions.
As an example, the 09 Fusion was supposed to get an improved 3.0L engine instead of the 3.5L due to supply issues. It has now been confirmed that the 3.5L engine program will be accelerated (more plants converted sooner) and the 3.0L improved engine has been all but cancelled (except maybe for the Escape). This may delay things a bit but the end result will be right.
You can't expect Ford's new management to fix 10 years of mismanagement in just over a year.
#7183 of 20238 Re: Lighter cars - Sustainable Zoom Zoom [akirby]
Nov 12, 2007 (9:49 am)
I agree with akirby on this one. I think I was the one who originally reported the rumor of the PIP Duratec30 being slated for the Fusion and Escape. That has since changed and sources on other forums are confirming the D35 for the Fusion in '09 along with a facelift and new interior (Still the PIP D30 for the Escape though as the D35 does not fit apparently). Other engine choices for '09 that are being thrown around include the new 2.5L I4 and a TwinForce I4 making near 280 HP with excellent FE. Those engines along with the gen II hybrid system and the D35 do give the consumers a lot to choose from when shopping for a Fusion.
I'm not sure why they would offer the TF in anything but an SVT though. Seems like it would steal sales from the D35 copies as it should have more power and better FE than the V6.
#7184 of 20238 Powerful Debate
Nov 12, 2007 (9:52 am)
While folks like to talk endlessly about V6 which makes for a fine marketing statement, the reality lies with success of I-4 power. That fact has long been ignored by GM, Ford and Chrysler.
But there appears to be an end in sight. For the first time, GM seems to be paying more respect to the power of four-cylinder engines, expecting more than half of Malibu to be equipped as such. I also remember reading that Aura will get the I-4 as well. Honda expects 50% of Accord sales to be EX/EX-L trim, then there are LX/LX-P trims. Clearly, V6 is expected to be a niche. Just see how many Camry V6 or Altima V6 you can spot on the road. Usually, if I-4 is good enough, people will overlook V6. Besides, saving an mpg or two wonít go out of fashion. In fact, it will be very much in fashion. Hence the rush to improve EPA ratings by hook or by crook (whether it all translates to reality, remains to be seen).
#7185 of 20238 Re: Lighter cars - Sustainable Zoom Zoom [aviboy97]
Nov 12, 2007 (9:52 am)
well , let's see here - if you really don't think that Ford's financial problems do effect Mazda's ability to to fulfill its promise for a better V6 in the 08 6 (you said so yourself) OR if you don't think that the 6 and the Fusion are close to identical mechanically then I guess the marketing people did their job. I personally have owned a number of Mazdas and even a Probe and have always thought that Mazda has been a good product that has been hurt by Dearborn.
#7186 of 20238 Re: AWD [akirby]
Nov 12, 2007 (9:56 am)
Of course I'm aware that those cars don't offer AWD. THAT WAS THE POINT.
And that wasnít the point of discussion around AWD. You might want to revisit "facts". I'm not interested in discussing Ford's commercials.
#7187 of 20238 Re: Lighter cars - Sustainable Zoom Zoom [lilengineerboy]
Nov 12, 2007 (9:58 am)
You forgot the most important thing about having "zoomzoom" handling in Michigan - pothole avoidance!
#7188 of 20238 Re: Powerful Debate [robertsmx]
Nov 12, 2007 (10:01 am)
and one would think that with $5 gas on the horizon that even more of these engines will be 4 bangers. When was the last time that 'Detroit' made a good 4 banger, anyway? While they may be paying some attention to things like that now (as you contend) - which 'Detroit' 4 bangers are you going to consider equal to the 'Japanese' efforts today (or in the near future)?
#7189 of 20238 Re: Powerful Debate [captain2]
Nov 12, 2007 (10:04 am)
I think the Ecotec 2.4L must be pretty good. It's not as sweet sounding as a Honda though!
#7190 of 20238 Re: Powerful Debate [captain2]
Nov 12, 2007 (10:23 am)
Four cylinder engines have always been a challenge for GM/Ford/Chrysler. It also shows in their reluctance to compete with entry level cars with smaller and more fuel efficient engines. They will usually slap bigger engines to make up for it and sell power.
For most part, they still believe in bragging about V8 (and to a lesser extent, V6). The priorities are messed up.
On the marketing front, even if a V6 manages to deliver as good mileage as an I-4 (the Malibu/Aura V6, based on history, wonít be a candidate for it), people perceive differently. It could be from experience though, because more often than not, what we compare is EPA rating, and not real world fuel economy.
My recent research into certified used RAV4 revealed some of that. 100% of relatively new RAV4 (from up to 2 years old) were V6 powered. I couldnít find a single I-4 powered RAV4 in my area. It only indicates to me that many bought V6 powered version looking at EPA rating but were either disappointed or scared to keep it home. They canít be fleet returns either because, based on my experience, virtually all fleet RAV4 have four bangers.
Another interesting option on the horizon is diesel. And with $5/gallon, it is only going to get more interesting. And at least one from Detroit (Bob Lutz) is downplaying it and considers it a ridiculous option. IMO, we're looking at history repeating itself.
#7191 of 20238 Re: Lighter cars - Sustainable Zoom Zoom [captain2]
Nov 12, 2007 (10:27 am)
if you really don't think that Ford's financial problems do effect Mazda's ability to to fulfill its promise for a better V6 in the 08 6 (you said so yourself)
I never said why the launch of the new Mazda6 was not on par with the rest of the world, because I do not know. No one does. You are forgetting that Mazda makes it's own money, and spends it own money. Do we really know if Ford's financial status effects what Mazda does in Japan?
According to rumors, the only real difference from the Euro/Japanese Mazda6 will be the V6 engine. Now, is Mazda going to use the 3.7 sourced from Japan, or the 3.5 sourced from the U.S.? We don't know. Also, did Mazda push back the launch of the 6 so it did not clash with the Accord? That is another rumor. If that were true, it's a good thing they did that. In this segment, you want to make the biggest splash upon arrival. The Accord most certainly did that. Then there is the AWD speculation. With the CX's selling strong, and demand increasing, AWD systems are scarce.
if you don't think that the 6 and the Fusion are close to identical mechanically then I guess the marketing people did their job
The current 2003-2008 Mazda6 and Ford Fusion are very similar. Same Mazda platform, and engine choices. The D23 is a Mazda design, and the D30 is Ford's. Tranny's are different as well as suspension/materials/design. The up-comming Mazda6 uses a Volvo platform, recently used in the new Ford Mondeo in Europe. If you have not seen the Mondeo, you need to take a look. Whatta car that is. In Europe, Ford's have a strong reputation for reliability and quality.