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Midsize Sedans 2.0

18220 messages,  Last post on May 24, 2013 at 7:58 AM

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What is this discussion about? Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 707 of 1822

#7061 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [captain2] by akirby

Nov 08, 2007 (10:41 am)

Replying to: captain2 (Nov 08, 2007 10:33 am)
That's an entirely different argument - whether the computer should be making these decisions for us. The original assertion was that it only sent torque to the rear if slippage was detected and that's not true.
 
I'm sure Ford is losing a few sales over lack of SC in the Fusion. But that doesn't mean they're behind the curve from a technology standpoint. SC was available in 1999 on the Lincoln LS (as was manumatic shifting) so the technology is there. They were also the first to put roll stability control on a SUV IIRC.
 
You could argue the same thing about the Camcord's lack of AWD. Ford decided to spend the money on AWD while Toyota and Honda spent it on 4 channel ABS and SC. And just because YOU prefer SC over AWD doesn't mean everyone does.
 
Next year the Fusion will have both AWD and SC. Where does that leave the Camcords?

#7062 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [akirby] by kdshapiro

Nov 08, 2007 (10:43 am)

Replying to: akirby (Nov 08, 2007 10:03 am)
Why is it marketing bunk? Because Ford developed it? Or just because you don't understand it?
 
Because this would make them the first manufacturer on the face of the planet to predict slip "before" it occurs and that ain't so. You cannot predict "slip" any more than you can predict the stock market.
 
It has nothing to do with whether the front wheels would actually slip or not - it doesn't matter. It shifts the torque to prevent a POSSIBLE slip.
 
They can say whatever they want different systems work differently. But I'll repeat....Slip can not be predicted and therefore proactive shift of torque to prevent slip is an impossibility.

#7063 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [akirby] by robertsmx

Nov 08, 2007 (10:49 am)

Replying to: akirby (Nov 08, 2007 10:06 am)
Where can I read about that? I haven't found anything on the topic.

#7064 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [captain2] by robertsmx

Nov 08, 2007 (10:53 am)

Replying to: captain2 (Nov 08, 2007 10:04 am)
Acura's CMBS system is another. But we would be digressing from the topic.
 
One example of engaging all wheels proactively (as in... no need to detect slippage before doing so) in an AWD system is Honda's VTM-4. But, it doesn't know if a slippage will occur. It will simply engage all wheels when the vehicle is being accelerated. There might be other systems like it, but so far I haven't found anything that suggests Ford's AWD in Fusion/Milan works like that (or engages without detecting any loss of traction). I will now leave that for akirby to provide us with the details.

#7065 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [captain2] by baggs32

Nov 08, 2007 (10:55 am)

Replying to: captain2 (Nov 08, 2007 10:33 am)
but you don't concede the fact that this (and many other systems) are really reacting to what some computer programmer somewhere is really guessing to be a problem
 
In that case evey AWD/4WD system should be called a "reactive" system. Even a full time system like those in Subarus are reacting to something electronic or mechanical in the driveline. Akirby's point is that 4WD can be engaged in the Fusion without slippage of the front wheels. Our Explorer has the same system, but for RWD, and I do feel the rear wheels slip in snow, ice, and sometimes rain before the front wheels kick in too. What I don't feel is when it might be kicking in going around a bend or something like that. But the part you really need it for IMO, which would be getting better traction in slippery conditions, is totally reactive and you can feel the wheels slip a little at first.
 
Does that make a little more sense or am I just adding to the confusion?
 
Of course Ford is well behind the curve on things like SC systems.
 
Whoa now captain. They may be behind in offering in on their fleet of cars but all of the SUVs/CUVs, and optional on some cars now, have it standard. And what Ford uses is not the same animal as what other mfrs offer.
 
Look up Volvo's SC with RSC system and you'll see the difference right away. Most mfrs are now copying it but I have yet to hear of one that's better than what Volvo and therefore Ford use.

#7066 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [robertsmx] by baggs32

Nov 08, 2007 (10:58 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Nov 08, 2007 10:53 am)
One example of engaging all wheels proactively (as in... no need to detect slippage before doing so) in an AWD system is Honda's VTM-4. But, it doesn't know if a slippage will occur. It will simply engage all wheels when the vehicle is being accelerated.
 
That seems really silly to have it work that way. Why not just send a little power to the other two wheels all the time rather than programming it to start from 0% and work up from there each time the accelerator is depressed? Is it a cost savings thing so they don't have to add another clutch or something?

#7067 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [robertsmx] by akirby

Nov 08, 2007 (11:37 am)

Replying to: robertsmx (Nov 08, 2007 10:49 am)
Where can I read about that? I haven't found anything on the topic.
 
I posted the link in post 7051. Here it is again:
 
Ford Media Article

#7068 of 18220 Re: The New Malibu [zzzoom6] by andres3

Nov 08, 2007 (11:42 am)

Replying to: zzzoom6 (Nov 05, 2007 8:30 pm)
now that most cars in this segment are very reliable, it's refreshing that I'm not married to a brand anymore and am willing to consider other options.
 
Where do you get that incorrect idea, impression, and opinion?

#7069 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [kdshapiro] by akirby

Nov 08, 2007 (11:46 am)

Replying to: kdshapiro (Nov 08, 2007 10:43 am)
Because this would make them the first manufacturer on the face of the planet to predict slip "before" it occurs and that ain't so. You cannot predict "slip" any more than you can predict the stock market.
 
Slip can not be predicted and therefore proactive shift of torque to prevent slip is an impossibility.
 
You are absolutely totally missing the point. Slip is most likely to occur when accelerating briskly or when cornering. Doesn't mean that it will occur - just that it's possible or even likely depending the road conditions. Ford's AWD software senses one or both of those conditions and sends torque to the rear to AVOID a potential slip situation.
 
Why is that so hard to comprehend? All you need is a steering angle sensor, throttle sensor, electrically controlled center diff and some softwtare. It's not rocket science.

#7070 of 18220 Re: Accord diesel for 2009 [akirby] by kdshapiro

Nov 08, 2007 (11:57 am)

Replying to: akirby (Nov 08, 2007 11:46 am)
Ford's AWD software senses one or both of those conditions and sends torque to the rear to AVOID a potential slip situation.
 
Ok, I understand what you are saying. The Ford system detects acceleration shifts accordingly. That is different than saying it is able to predict slippage.
 
As a comparision, Subaru's system has been doing that for years. I posted a description in this thread earlier.

Messages Page 707 of 1822

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