Last post on Dec 10, 2013 at 5:02 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#6692 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [akirby]
Oct 24, 2007 (10:30 am)
Let us take JD Powers word on overall dependability, in that it represents a typical buyer and a real scenario. This is how some of the midsize sedans stacked up:
Honda Accord: 4/5
Nissan Altima: 3/5
Toyota Camry: 3/5
Ford Fusion: 3/5
Hyundai Sonata: 3/5
Saturn Aura: 2/5
VW Passat: 2/5
The only car that is said to be better than Camry is the Accord. But, Accord isn’t something that every Toyota buyer will find appealing. It rides firm and doesn’t isolate folks as much as a typical Toyota buyer would fall for. They are certainly not going for Mazda6 or Passat or Aura for quality reasons.
That said, quality issues and overall perception of the car itself are big deal to companies like Honda and Toyota. If Camry is not as good as it has traditionally been (these cars, BTW, have never been flawless, quality issues come and go, consumers stay), the bet should be on Toyota taking it seriously. These companies thrive on reputation and for good reason.
Just look at what Honda did to Civic with the redesign. 2001-2005 Civic was immensely successful in terms of sales, perhaps the best years in Civic’s sales history. But, Honda knew the car needed more than just sales. 2006 Civic hasn’t really thrashed sales of the old (it has exceeded but not so much to make a big deal out of it), but the perception around the car has changed immensely, compared to previous generation.
OTOH, look at Ford’s take on Focus. A few days ago I spotted the latest model, but it took me a few minutes to figure out what it was. It gave me an impression of a car that may be sold in Mexico, but not here (I see quite a few cars driven from Mexico here in Dallas area, that aren’t sold here). It is another lost opportunity. It doesn’t stand out. It feels like a car that Ford (again) designed to be a rental queen. What is different about it from very first years of Focus which I thought was going to give Civic and Corolla a run for their money.
Also worth noting is that a typical buyer is going to care less about issues that arise as a result of model change or anything that comes during the warranty period (first 3-5 years). It becomes an issue after the honeymoon is over.
For example, based on the design, the approach and sales projections, for the new Accord, Honda seems to be targeting 1998-2002 Accord buyer base first. These are more likely to buy a new Accord than the folks that have 2003-2007. Now, these folks would return (I would) based on their experience with their Accords over last 4-5 years when their car was completely out of warranty, and how it held up to their abuse (or lack of).
Thinking “now” may work “now”, but to be successful in the longer term, there needs to be a plan and proper execution that sticks to a formula.
#6693 of 20239 Best Midsize Car [robertsmx]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:11 am)
(The best) Midsize Car JD Power 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study
drum roll please
The only car that is said to be better than Camry is the Accord
Even better than the Accord as rated by JD Power is the Buick Century.
What is Buicks midsize car now? The LaCrosse?
Without looking this up I could not think what the midsize currently sold by Buick was.
GM desperately needs to provide new product to Buick.
#6694 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [robertsmx]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:12 am)
You left out a few:
Buick Century 5/5
Buick Regal 5/5
Mercury Sable 5/5
Fusion is missing from this list and Camry gets 4 dots, not 3:
As for the Focus (when did that become midsize ) it was the top rated car by CR when it first came out (Sept 2000 issue). However, this apparently did not translate into buyers being willing to pay a premium price for one (as they do for the civic). I think it is a good buy, even with it's aging platform. Price-wise the Focus is more comparable to the Fit, just as cars like the Fusion are generally more comparable to the Civic in terms of actual selling prices.
#6695 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [jeffyscott]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:25 am)
Those are 2004 models. The Fusion and Milan won't appear on that survey for 2 more years (2009 survey covering 2006 models).
#6696 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [robertsmx]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:31 am)
All I said was that Toyota's recent quality problems and especially the declaration from CR that it won't automatically recommend new models and the fact that it dropped the V6 Camry and 4x4 Tundra from it's recommended list, combined with plenty of dissatisfied owners can potentially knock Camry from the top spot.
Toyota has lost it's bulletproof image. We'll have to wait and see what affect it has on sales down the road.
#6697 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [robertsmx]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:31 am)
I think people, from my interaction with them everyday at work, that many Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda buyers look at CR for reliability and quality before they look at JD Powers. From talking to a lot of people in the auto industry, connected to many different mfgr's, JD Powers is not really regarded as a great source for anything. They are more like a Car and Driver or Motor Trend.
What does "overall quality" really mean when CR or JD Powers places a "quality" label on vehicles they asses. Does it encompass the grade of materials? How they are put together? How long the car is going to last? Maybe a bit of all? Hmmm... I have personally noticed that the interior quality of materials in a Toyota Camry are low rent. Now, they are put together well. So, how does that score? Overall reliability seems to have seriously slipped as well. How does the Camry receive a 3 out of 5?
The previous generation Honda Accord also utilized numerous plastic components, as does most every mfgr, but, I noticed more plastic then some other brands (Hyundai/Mazda). Once again, these materials are put together very well. So, once again, is the build quality regarded higher then the actual materials used? The ride/comfort of the Honda Accord was nothing special either. Reliability has been top knotch for the most part, apart from the V6 tranny's.
I have the most experience in a Mazda6 (2005 Mazda6 i 5-Door w/leather/Bose/moon roof). There are once again, plastics used in the interior, but, not as much as the current Camry or 2003-2007 Accord. The build quality is not as tight, but, so so close to Accord/Camry. The ride has not changed since day 1, and I have had no issues to date (4 cyl Mazda6's have been rated well in reliability). What makes the Mazda6 score only 2 out of 5? Is is the sup par V6? How does the same V6 get rated high in the Fusion? It's the same engine! I have no idea. Dose the fact that many Mazda6's are fleet account for a low score. Fleet cars usually get the snot beat out of them. Once again, I have visited JD Powers web site and really do not understand their rating philosophy. I guess this is why I find them useless.
#6698 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [jeffyscott]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:49 am)
Funny how the Century, Regal, and Sable got left out of the earlier listing by robertsmx: GM and Ford.
#6699 of 20239 JD Powers study and data
Oct 24, 2007 (11:53 am)
Remember that their information comes from random surveys of owners over three years.
Overall Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction of any component, feature, or item (i.e., components that stop working or trim pieces that break or come loose).
Powertrain Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with the engine or transmission as well as problems that affect the driving experience (i.e., vehicle/brakes pull, abnormal noises or vibrations) only.
Body & Interior Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with wind noise, water leaks, poor interior fit/finish, paint imperfection, and squeaks/rattles.
Features & Accessories Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with the seats, windshield wipers, navigation system, rear-seat entertainment system, heater, air conditioner, stereo system, sunroof and trip computer.
#6700 of 20239 Re: Best Midsize Car [moparbad]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:53 am)
I stand corrected. Some of the links to dependability won't respond so I clicked on "rankings by segment" and selected midsize, but didn't realize it was talking IQS.
Speaking of Buick, I think it benefits from the segment it caters to. I would also be interested to see average age of the buyers taking the surveys as well as miles driven to draw proper conclusions from any of these surveys. I have known folks who drive 5K miles or less/year. I drive that distance in two months.
#6701 of 20239 Re: Most Wanted Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [imidazol97]
Oct 24, 2007 (11:54 am)
Yeah, while "defending" a car that I can't see myself buying.