Last post on Dec 10, 2013 at 5:02 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#6537 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [zzzoom6]
Oct 20, 2007 (9:20 pm)
May I ask you to show me a 2WD crossover with mileage as good as a sedan counterpart (with the sedan's best engine)? Here's what I'm coming up with...
Saturn Outlook v. Saturn Aura 3.6L
Honda Pilot v. Honda Accord
Ford Edge v. Ford Fusion or 2008 Taurus
Hyundai Veracruz v. Hyundai Sonata or Azera
Toyota Highlander v. Toyota Avalon or Camry
To the best of my ability to tell, these Sedans all get better mileage and are quicker than their larger counterparts.
If you need seating for 5+ and don't mind ignoring the obvious practicality of a minivan (vans these days come with swiveling seats, dual DVD players, laser cruise control, etc... what more creature comforts does a $35k-$40k shopper need?), a Crossover is fine; even practical if you need AWD.
If you are like most people I know with an SUV or Crossover though, a midsize or full size sedan would be more logical (yes, I realize not many people buy things based on logic anymore).
#6538 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [thegraduate]
Oct 20, 2007 (11:03 pm)
Malibu Maxx, hrmph, hrmph....
I'm still in mourning that my beloved Maxx is no more with the new platform. There's nothing like a midsize hatch. I get well over 32 mpg on the highway.
If I had to replace, I guess it would be a Mazda or the new Hyundai Elantra hatch (09)...
#6539 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [zzzoom6]
Oct 21, 2007 (4:11 am)
What is the rationale for the "crossover" to even exist? All it is a wagon on stilts...why not just go with the wagon?
Why did I not get a wagon, then? For me it was price, looks, gas mileage, and the fact that I don't really need one.
We have an old minvan and have only used it's hauling capabilities about 2 times per year recently. I figure if the minvan dies it'd be cheaper to rent something, pay for delivery, or pick up a little trailer for those rare occasions. I'm not one of those handyman, do-it-yourselfer types, though.
#6540 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [jeffyscott]
Oct 21, 2007 (5:20 am)
Jeffy...you sound like me.I have a 97 Chrysler mini-van and it only takes my wife to work,or to Wal-Mart.Less than 200 miles per month.I bought it new,and maintain it well.Should the engine die or something comparable,it will go to the big junkyard in the sky.
BTW..have you checked out the new Chrysler Minis..pretty cool interiors,a much more modern dash than in the previous models.
#6541 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [mickeyrom]
Oct 21, 2007 (6:24 am)
No, we are out of the minivan stage. We have 2 sedans now.
Our's is a '97 also, a Windstar though. The current user is my 23 year old daughter, who recently graduated. We told her she can use it for as long as she wants for $25 per month (to cover the difference in insurance). If we have a need for it, we will just "borrow" it from her.
#6542 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [csandste]
Oct 21, 2007 (6:28 am)
I would've mentioned it had it not been near-death, with the hatch on the chopping block.
#6543 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [thegraduate]
Oct 21, 2007 (9:47 am)
Exactly. I have never warmed up to crossover SUVs. I know lots of people like them, but if I'm going to buy a big, boxy, lower-fuel-economy, based-on-a-car-chassis vehicle, I figure I may as well get maximum cargo space and passenger comfort and go with a minivan. I don't have a problem being seen in a minivan, although I know some folks won't be caught dead in one. My MPV has the underpinnings of the 626, so it handles great (for a minivan anyway), but is no longer than a mid-sized sedan yet seats up to seven in reasonable comfort, with tons of cargo space available even with four adults inside.
I think a 5-door hatch is a great compromise: the styling, handling, fuel economy, and price of a sedan, with almost as much versatility as the small-to-medium crossover SUVs. And if you really need AWD, there's the Outback.
#6544 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [thegraduate]
Oct 21, 2007 (9:49 am)
May I ask you to show me a 2WD crossover with mileage as good as a sedan counterpart (with the sedan's best engine)?
My thinking is that if you don't care about performance, why would you go with the most powerful engine? And some of the crossovers on your list seat 7, so I think those are the wrong crossovers to be comparing. Here's a quick list of crossovers I would compare (all are i4's except the hyundai where the sante fe only has a v-6 - perhaps I should've compared their smaller suv...).
accord 21-31 vs crv 20-27
mazda6 21-28 vs mazda5 21-26
camry 21-31 vs rav4 21-27
fusion 20-29 vs escape 22-28
sonata v6 19-28 vs sante fe v6 19-24
At the most, it seems the sedans have maybe a 10% fuel mileage advantage. For some, this 10% may be important, but the extra $150 a year in gas for some crossovers (based on 24mpg avg and $3 gallon gas on 12k miles annually), the extra utility may be worth it. Some have said, just get a wagon... for 08 in this segment, there will be the legacy and vw which isn't a whole lot of choice.
All I'm saying is IF a buyer doesn't care about performance, I would think the extra utility of a crossover would make sense. But for me (and other buyers of cars like the Mazda6), I DO care about performance and this sedan would torch most crossovers on the fun roads. Of course I have the hatchback, so I have many advantages of a crossover with the handling of a sedan... I don't think I could ask for more than what the Mazda6 offers.
#6545 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [zzzoom6]
Oct 21, 2007 (10:41 am)
You misspelled. Its not about sensitivity, it is about sensibility.
Cross overs may have fairly close EPA ratings, and besides the fact that I'm a down to earth guy and prefer to stay farther from the heavens (which does translate to better dynamics of the vehicle), I don't have giants for friends or family. A sedan works just fine. So, I see no reason to compromise dynamics and fuel economy adding to extra ownership costs. And I don't rely on EPA ratings.
You quoted 20/27 mpg for CRV and 21/31 mpg for Accord. Doesn't sound like much difference, right? (unless you look at highway mileage) The CR-V's rating is identical to re-rated fuel economy for my 1998 Accord (which was 23/30 under old standard). But, here is the reality. I average 26 mpg in mixed driving in the Accord. It also gets me 32 mpg with average speed around 75 mph. If CRV could do that, I will be VERY pleasantly surprised, much less be close to the new Accord.
Even 10% can be a big number for some like me. I drive about 2000 miles/month. So, while $30/month may not sound like much, over five years it may add up to an additional $2K. But, comparison to CRV is fictitious since I haven't spent enough time to really know what it delivers. A recent road trip on a rental RAV4 just confirmed why they don't make much sense to me. I averaged 23.8 mpg with 90-95% freeway driving, at about 70 mph. It was AWD/I-4, but it is over 8 mpg worse than my observed mileage in my TL and Accord on the same road trip (but going faster).
Fuel economy is important to me. A reason, I'm seriously contemplating next Fit, even over the Accord. It offers the utility of those cross overs, with an anticipated 40-50% improvement in real world fuel economy as that can be big in the future.
#6546 of 20239 Re: the meaning of zoom-zoom [zzzoom6]
Oct 21, 2007 (12:49 pm)
The thing is all your comparisons are off by one size class. For example the CRV is a compact not midsize, it is sized about like a Civic (wagon). It is not Accord size, it is 13 inches shorter and wheelbase is 5 inches less (and I am comparing the 2007 Accord, not the new larger one).
I just had a Mazda 5 as a loaner it is like a Mazda 3 minivan...or more of a microvan.
I did not look up the Rav4, but I am guessing it is Corolla sized. I also am not sure on the Santa Fe.
The Edge is the fusion sized vehicle, not the escape.
Try comparing price and mileage of midsize crossover to midsize sedans.