Last post on Dec 09, 2013 at 7:13 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#18713 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [wayne21]
Jul 21, 2013 (10:49 am)
wayne wrote: "In fact, I think the accord is probably worth $2500 to $3000 more than the comparable camry...."
I think you're probably right. And the Accord probably costs Honda maybe something like $1000-2000 more to make than a Camry.
Back in 2009, in the depths of the financial crisis, the President of Honda told the Civic team to take something like $1000 off the cost of the 2012 Civic. They did, but then the 2012 Civic was justly criticized for being cheap in some obvious ways. The President himself took the blame, and told the Civic team to go back to the drawing board and see how to put c. $1000 back into each car to make it better. This involved better plastics, more sound insulation, better steering, better suspension components, thicker glass, nicer styling, etc. But they only raised the price something like $100 bucks, which doesn't seem like it would make financial sense. But the 2012 Civic was only selling with big rebates, while the 2013 Civic is selling with much smaller rebates. I'm not sure the profit level per car changed, but Honda effectively moved the Civic upmarket.
The 2013 Accord was also an attempt by Honda to move upmarket, because the KIA Optima and Hyundai Sonata and some other cars had already moved upmarket a few years earlier. The Optima looks amazingly classy for a midsize car, inside and out, and has great engineering and standard equipment. Plus they are selling with only small rebates.
Normally a "halo" car is something like a Corvette, which may be profitable in an of itself, but more importantly gives prestige to the brand. I can't find the link, but there was some Honda executive that described the 2013 Accord as their "halo" car. At first, I thought he might be misusing that word, but then as I saw the whines and complaints from Acura fans at places like vtec.net, and I saw what he meant. Normally, the best and newest tech for halo cars starts at the high end cars and brands and moves down to the high volume models in a few years. But Honda, to the anger of some Acura fans, has put some of the best stuff they have on the Accord first, before Acura, like the direct injected engines, the lane watch, etc. Plus, they moved down a fair amount of stuff that used set Acura apart, like chrome door handles, etc. So a base Honda Accord not only gets from 0-60 faster than an Acura TSX, but it gets better mpg, has more high tech stuff, and costs a lot less. No wonder Acura is only doing so-so right now.
But this also means that Honda probably can't really offer the rebates that Toyota has right now for the Camry. If they did, they'd might lose money. Toyota can sell the Camry for less and still make a profit.
#18714 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [benjaminh]
Jul 21, 2013 (5:29 pm)
I'm not sure Honda would meet Toyota rebates even if they could financially. Part of their image is high resale. I think that's why even with miniscule (regardless whether they are Bernanke artificial) interest rates, Honda never went below 0.9% while many of it's competitors offer 0% differing from each other only in terms of loan duration at that rate.
#18715 of 20237 Re: Camry vs. Accord ad [benjaminh]
Jul 22, 2013 (11:22 am)
Accord Sport does have power driver seat and power lumbar adjustment.
I got the manual, so can't comment on the paddle shifters.
I didn't drive an LX or EX, so can't compare the performance of the upsized wheels and tires, but I will say they have plenty of grip even in the rain, and they are not noisy at all. The OE tires are rated 400 A A, I'm anxious to see how they hold up over the long run. There is plenty of sidewall, so they are not what I'd call "low profile", the ride is not harsh. And there is a nice rubber "lip" built in to protect the wheels from minor scuffs. Also, the sport wheels' gray painted finish hides brake dust nicely.
I'll be honest, the thing I like most about them is they just look cool. The Sport has a nice "stance" compared to the LX/EX. LX 16"s in particular look fairly wimpy, although it's a lot better than the plastic wheel covers on base Accords up through last year. The 17"s, which are the same wheels from EX all the way up to Touring, are a bit bland as well. Sport wheels combined with the dual exhaust, lip spoiler, and moderate chrome trim front, rear, and door handles, and tinted windows, it's a rather upscale look. I've had several comment that it looks much more expensive than it really is (FB photo taken from side had one friend convinced I'd bought a new BMW... haha. Not quite. Although I do see a faint resemblance to the new Lexus GS, if you'll permit the fantasy...)
#18716 of 20237 Fleet sales
Jul 22, 2013 (2:53 pm)
Automotive News cites R.L. Polk data in noting that many of the family sedan segment's heavyweights are running above 30-percent fleet sales, including the Altima, Fusion and Chevrolet Malibu, while the Camry is expected to finish the year under 15 percent. Even so, Camry sales to fleets are ahead of this time last year (despite 2012's numbers having sizable catch-up sales after 2011's tsunami-tightened supplies). Honda has long touted its low fleet sale percentage, and the new Accord is no different – its fleet sales sit at 1 percent.
#18717 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [benjaminh]
Jul 22, 2013 (6:21 pm)
Resale is only a potential problem if you keep a car less than 5 years or if it is totaled in that time. But Camry still has very good resale, even with fleet sales of about 12%. And if you look at a Camry vs. Accord, used the Accord is about $900 more for comparable 2010s, but the Accord was about $800 more new, so I am not seeing any real big decrease in resale value in my quick look at Edmunds pricing for the two. And that is just one element of the total cost to own. Factor in insurance cost, maintenance costs, part costs, ease of DIY maintenance, etc, etc.
#18718 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [mcdawgg]
Jul 23, 2013 (8:44 am)
Resale is only a potential problem if you keep a car less than 5 years or if it is totaled in that time.
I think that statement is correct 30 years ago, but nowadays you have to change that 5 year figure to more like 7 years. Cars are getting very expensive and used car values have been higher lately.
#18719 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [andres3]
Jul 23, 2013 (10:37 am)
I'd say the longer you keep a car, the MORE it matters. Honda and Toyota may be about the same, but compare either of those to anything American or Korean after 3, 6, 10 years...
#18720 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [ahightower]
Jul 23, 2013 (11:42 am)
I have done that. Have you? I own a 9-1/2 year old Elantra. It's still worth about half of its original purchase price after all that time. Not bad at all for a nearly 10 year old car!
Take a look at used car prices for late model Hyundais, including 2006+ Sonatas. They're up there with the best of them. Probably because they've improved a lot in the past 8-10 years.
I also see resale values of the better American mid-sized cars like the Fusion holding up well too.
Where I see the big dropoff in value is on higher end cars. Luxury cars in particular really take a hit in resale value the first few years.
#18721 of 20237 Re: Motor Trend on Camry [backy]
Jul 23, 2013 (12:11 pm)
You know, I find the IP on the 2014 Crayola much more cohesive than the hodge-podge, IP-by-committee "style" on the Camry.
See it here: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1306_2014_toyota_corolla_first_look/p- hoto_02.html
I had to laugh when the author said "whats with the giant circles on the steering wheel? I feel like I should be firing missiles". Awesome!
Also, thank you Toyota for not putting any fake wood trim in the new Corolla dash.
So, Toyota, if you are listening, fix the Camry dash layout. Focus on good materials, and dump the wood if you can't do it tastefully. Sell out the current stock at a discount. Maybe as the "Honey Boo-Boo edition". Or whatever. Just call up Clem in fleet sales. He'll know what to do.