Last post on Dec 10, 2013 at 5:10 AM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
Jul 13, 2013 (6:24 pm)
cski: yeah, I think I feel the same way you do about not wanting the added complexity of a turbo. But probably our fears are overblown.
Have you seen Ford's durability tests for the Ecoboost in their trucks? They truly torture the engine under the most awful conditions for about 6 months with logging, desert racing with sand, etc., etc., giving it the equivalent of at least 150,000 miles iirc. And then they take it apart, examine things, and do a compression test, and it still appears that the engine has a lot of life left to it. Ford's engineers really made more durable a lot of the components in the engine to make sure Ecoboost wouldn't have reliability problems. Only time will tell, but right now it's looking pretty good as far as I know.
But if with all that high tech high pressure stuff you don't actually go faster with less gas than, say, a Mazda6, Nissan Altima, or Honda Accord, is there a point to it? The base Fusion has a thrashy old-tech engine that's rather unpleasant from my rental car experiences. You have to move up in trim (c. $2000) and then still get the optional Ecoboost engine iirc. At this point a Fusion costs significantly more than a comparable KIA, Honda, etc. once you factor in the upgraded engine.
Honda actually did something similar on the previous generation Accord. If you got an LX, you got a lower power, less sophisticated, and slightly noisier VTEC engine. Moving up the EX and above you got a VTEC that was closer to being an Acura engine. But starting with the 2013, you get a better and more advanced engine on the LX than you got even on the previous year's EX (And yet it doesn't seem to have clatter. Haven't figured out if they added sound insulation somewhere or if they solved the clatter issue with a tech fix of some kind.)
It's pretty clear that part of the credit for Honda stepping up their game with the 2013 Accord goes to KIA and Hyundai. They piled so much standard stuff (including that powerful engine you talked about) into even the base model, that it was more luxe and had more features than the base models of all of their competitors. For years Honda was stingy with the extra features, making you really buy a high end model to get some things, but I guess they got tired of KIA and Hyundai stealing their customers, and so now they've put lots of stuff on their base model too.
But back to engines. Since KIA has a 10 year/100,000 mi warranty on all of their engines, you really didn't have to worry about the reliability. I'm convinced it would have been reliable, but if not you would have been covered.
But as you say, with lots of traffic in the DC area do you really need that kind of power?
I know, cski, that you're not in the market for a car, and are lukewarm about the Accord's CVT and its styling. But, if you'll bear with me, an Accord would probably actually solve two of your pet peeves with your Optima: the rear visibility and the mpg. The Accord's slender rear pillars, as I've said a few times, give it the best visibility in the class. And now the CVT and DI VTEC engine gives it great mpg too. The trade in value of your Optima would be awesome, and you can get at least $2500 off list for pretty much any Accord. Ok, I'll shut up now. I promise! (after reading your post about the ghost cars I've been kinda haunted by that. Seriously. Don't think about a Prius for that reason, bc they are just as bad if not worse for rear blind spots.)
#18647 of 20238 Re: hwy mpg Fusion hybrid vs Accord cvt [tundradweller1]
Jul 13, 2013 (7:38 pm)
Heh...I don't go 90 all the time
When it's 85 I go 90...when it's 70 I go 75..
Don't watch much TV...don't even have cable (coat hanger antenna..works pretty good )
#18648 of 20238 Car and Driver on Ecoboost 1.6 Fusion
Jul 14, 2013 (4:01 am)
"2013 Ford Fusion 1.6L EcoBoost Automatic
Movie-star looks, athletic chassis, pedestrian powertrain.
....Consistent with Ford’s transition to smaller engines (there is no longer a V-6 in the Fusion powertrain inventory), the 1.6 employs turbocharging to extract more power from less displacement while shooting for high marks on the government’s efficiency tests. Although this is to some extent a fool’s errand—the EPA dyno rollers bear little relationship to the operating realities of America’s streets and interstates—it’s the common response across the industry to the lofty efficiency requirements mandated by various global entities.
Teetering on the tightrope between acceptable performance and high mpg, the 1.6 turbo delivers 178 horsepower at 5700 rpm and 184 lb-ft of torque at a reasonably low 2500 rpm. Assigned to towing a substantial mid-size sedan, these aren’t prepossessing output numbers, but if the driver keeps the turbo spooled up—the antithesis of driving for high mpg (we averaged 22 mpg)—there’s enough snort to make the Fusion a reasonably effective ally for dissecting day-to-day traffic.
Effective, however, only applies once the car is moving. Getting the 1.6 Fusion automatic swiftly out of the starting blocks requires some skilled brake-torquing to get a chirp of wheelspin—the better to minimize engine bog—but even then the driver’s danger of acceleration blackout is nil: In this case, 0 to 60 mph in 8.2 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 16.2 seconds at 86 mph. In a recent comparison test versus the Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, and Volkswagen Passat, a Fusion 1.6 automatic was slowest of the group...."
#18649 of 20238 Re: hwy mpg Fusion hybrid vs Accord cvt [ivan_99]
Jul 14, 2013 (5:01 am)
Too funny Ivan, I too only have OTA TV. If not for movies I would not even own a big screen.
Lest I sound like grandpa Tom I also ride Motorcycles, one flirting 150 H.P. which sees triple digits ....too often. I just don't comprehend commuting at a frenetic pace. Point A to point B.
#18650 of 20238 Re: - [benjaminh]
Jul 15, 2013 (4:15 am)
You make some great points Ben. I really like the new Accord, especially the Sport, which I swear I saw in blue with dual exhaust and the 18" rims. Similarly, I also like the Mazda 6. This represents the only two mid sizer's I would consider. I do like the Accords styling very much, just "meh" about the CVT. So, I would have to either go with the stick, or move up to the V6...which would get me even less MPG than my current ride.
I would even go back on my last post; and trade for a 2014 Optima SX (in Corsa Blue) if Kia made it worth my while. I am just still smitten with the Optima styling.
Also, the Mazda looks so similar to the Kia that they could be brothers. Swapping for one with a 15 hp deficit doesn't make a lot of financial or psychological sense. The only reason to swap to Mazda is it's rear view camera, and it's refined sporty chassis. It's a drivers car...and I am a drivers car man...but not at the expense of losing $5000 in depreciation on the deal.
Do you know which car currently appeals to me the most? It's the new Lexus IS 350. What a GREAT looking, and brilliantly performing Sport sedan. It has all the attributes of a comfortable Lexus with BMW performance and modern styling....with the added promise of excellent Toyota reliability
In a recent review, it beat both the BMW 330i and the Caddy ATS 3.6.
Jul 15, 2013 (4:13 am)
That Lexus is a c.$50,000 car, and so is in an entirely different class. This one may be different, but past Lexus cars have done poorly on crash tests--as poorly as the Camry, in spite of their lofty price tag.
The Mazda6 seems like a great car, but the visibility isn't as good at the Accord, plus it's a bit louder, has less rear seat space, and a smaller trunk. I thought you didn't like Mazdas? I think they are good cars, but having owned both I prefer Hondas. Of course, I haven't driven the new 6, which is earning raves and even beating the Accord in some comparisons, and so I can't really say about that one.
Haven you gone on a test drive with Honda's new CVT in the Accord? It's quite different from the CVT in the Nissan.
#18652 of 20238 Re: Car and Driver on Ecoboost 1.6 Fusion [benjaminh]
Jul 15, 2013 (4:50 am)
I think you and I have felt from the get-go that the 1.6 turbo was going to be challenged by mass in this application. I do think many people will be happy with it, as not everyone will employ full throttle acceleration between stoplights on a regular basis. Nor does everyone live in congested areas with stop and go traffic as a matter of course.
There is a second ecoboost option that makes more sense in this car. The 2.0 turbo. With roughly 240 HP, this engine would be more able to keep up without gratuitous stabs at the throttle. I bet the MPG from both engines in this area would no more than 1 mpg +or - , and the 2.0 would be a more relaxed highway cruiser.
I know the 1.6 is a smooth, reliable engine, and is used on many Ford models. I am not knocking it for those reasons.
The 2.0 turbo has become the industry standard V6 replacement in modern mid and full size sedans, and I think I covered why in this post.
#18653 of 20238 Re: - [benjaminh]
Jul 15, 2013 (5:13 am)
I am aware of it's price tag....and I will not be running down to pick one up with three kids to put through college, but man it's a good looking sedan!
To answer to my not liking Mazda's, it isn't that I don't like them (I bought two of them), it's that the 04 Mazda 6 had it's A/C compressor replaced twice under warranty and once out of my pocket. Also, with less than 120 k I had to put a $3000 transmission in it. Recently I found out that the outgoing models have been made in Detroit, on a Ford Assembly line with many Ford components under it's skin. My Mazda 3 was very reliable, but she almost got me killed in wet weather. (There are documented cases of it's frightening lack of traction, even two deaths). It spun while doing 45 on I-95 with no throttle application. Totaled.
The new 6 is made in a brand new factory in Japan and with tight quality control. So with that said; I might give Mazda another shot if I was in the market for a new car. It's cool is that I can track its reliability and see if it lives up to it's full potential without any personal risk. Then I may consider it when my Optima is due for replacement.
#18654 of 20238 Re: Car and Driver on Ecoboost 1.6 Fusion [cski]
Jul 15, 2013 (8:28 am)
The 1.6L EB is being replaced with a new 1.5L EB with several improvements. I think it's going to take Ford a few years to figure out the tuning and engineering on the EB engines to get max power and fuel economy at the same time.
Jul 15, 2013 (10:57 am)
EB 1.6 isn't just a little behind - Mazda6 gets 28% better overall mpg (CR test 32 to 25) Ford has a long way to go. Of course Mazda, Honda and Nissan won't be standing still while Ford figures things out.
I like Ford - they have a good chassis. Hopefully the 1.5 is an improvement.