Last post on Dec 08, 2013 at 7:45 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#13249 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [hackattack5]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:01 am)
Having to produce, then give away a huge number of vehicles was the double-pronged pitchfork that skewered GM and Ford. They had to produce a huge number of vehicles to cover their fixed costs..whether they could sell this number or not. When they couldn't sell these numbers they then were forced to
a) initiate give away programs like Employee Pricing for Everyone ( Please take these vehicles ! )
b) massive fleet sales at breakeven pricing.
Both prongs skewered the retail buyers and drove down the resale prices.
Hopefully in the reorganizations this year the D3, along with the rest of the industry, will learn how to balance production and demand. This alone will eliminate the need to give away the vehicles thus drive up resale prices. However it also means that on the retail side the makers are going to try to get higher prices from the everyday buyer.
In this they have a long row to hoe. Toyota's and Honda's normally sell for $1000-$2000 more than the typical D3 midsizer or a Hyundai/Kia. Think about how that affects resale prices and how that affects the profitability of each maker.
400,000 units x $1000.....
#13250 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [hackattack5]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:14 am)
With the competition as tight as it is in the sedan segment it will be interesting to see how those companies can promote the resell value.
Well, to be honest, only Honda and Toyota can promote high resale because they are the two that stand at the top. They are followed by Subaru, Nissan, VW and Mazda. Then we have Hyundai, Ford, Chevy and Kia. This is how they play out in the wholesale world.
I have noticed Honda's, particularly the Accord, has a stupid high book value and it is very common to get retail money from a wholesaler.
Now, there are many good cars on this list. Unfortunately, being a good car is not going to automatically put you at the top with Honda and Toyota. Take the Sonata for example. You can buy a new one so cheap it hurts the resale value. Why do you think Hyundai promotes rebates and special financing and not leasing? Because they wither away to nothing very fast.
Nissan and Mazda have really tried to boost their resale value of the Altima and Mazda6, but, have struggled to do so. I think those two cars are more impressive then both the Accord and Camry, by a long shot.
Subaru has done a great job with the Legacy. Subaru is really on a roll lately, and they seemed to have figured out something and are running with it. Personally, I am really turned off by the new Legacy. I think it became cheap and very uninspiring to drive. Add ugly to boot.
Ford has done a wonderful job with their recent ad campaign with the Fusion, as well as the rest of their lineup. They are really getting people to think American again. I drove a new Fusion myself, and I really do not like the interior. It just does not do it for me. The outer styling is nice, and conservative at the same time. The power train is good, and I would not hesitate to buy one based on that. But, it will be quite sometime before the resale can be a factor.
The Malibu resale will continue to get destroyed as long as Chevy keeps pumping mass units into rental service. I think they put waaaaay to many into rental service and it will hurt overall reliability and resale. Ford was smart and scaled back rentals, as did Mazda.
#13251 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [dodgeman07]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:15 am)
Which is precisely why the Chairman has to step up and state that he's not at all satisfied with the company as it reached the top. Crack that whip....
The big reason why I don't see any of the others taking over the top spot is that there is no trend in either the Camry or Corolla that they are losing sales, in fact they seem to be solidifying their position on the top spots. Outside of that the other makers simply don't have the capacity to suddenly double production and sales. Where would these new Malibu's come from? How could Hermosillo jump it's production by more than 50% suddenly ( 'suddenly' is 5 yrs in auto production terms ). The Accord is maxxed out in Marysville. Hyundai simply doesn't have the distribution network to move that many vehicles.
This assumes also that both Toyota and Honda stand still and do nothing.
What has happened is that the bottom-dwellers, except for Chrysler, have improved dramatically so that the separation from top to bottom is very very small. This is good for all of us buying vehicles in this segment.
#13252 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [m6user]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:20 am)
This is a few stats from the 2009 USA "car" sales as per The Wall Street Journal.
(car sales only not trucks or suv's etc)
maker tot. sales % 2009 v's 2008 % sales f/ oct. 2009 market share
GM 731,434 -33.2 -11.4 8.5
FORD 491,997 -16.8 -10.7 5.7
TOY 913,515 -24.0 +1.5 10.6
HONDA 599,429 -23.6 -3.7 6.9
NISSAN 429,866 -18.2 +1.8 5.0
HYUNDAI 282,443 +55.8 +55.9 3.3
MAZDA 121,478 -22.2 -1.2 1.4
CHRYSLER 187,308 -47.6 -29.7 2.2
SUZUKI 3,774 -81.0 -99.5 ?
VW 149,187 -16.0 +15.8 1.7
There are many more listed, this is just a few.
#13253 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (9:00 am)
For some reason my stats on the post got jammed togather, they were apart.
After the car maker is the total sales for the 2009 year, the next number is
the percentage of sales compared to 2008, example (GM is -33.2) the next
figure is the sales for October 2009, example (FORD is +10.7) and last is
their % of US market share f/ 2009 sales. All of this is on the web site listed.
#13254 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (9:27 am)
Amongst the top 20 vehicles at your link, the Fusion sales are one of the few showing a YTD increase at +15.3%. Camry is -23.7%, Accord -26.6%, Altima -29.8%, Malibu -12.8%.
Legacy sales are also up, at +14.5%.
#13255 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (9:44 am)
Good data. The WSJ publishes this market data every month. It's useful IMO but they don't keep prior months' data AFAIK.
#13256 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [kdhspyder]
Nov 28, 2009 (12:27 pm)
Further down on that same website it shows Hyundai car sales went up
55.9% in Oct 2009 over Oct. 2008. & +5.8% for the year.
For more sales stats including some monthly reports try the following
enter on Google search line; monthly breakdown US car sales
scroll down to "monthly sales results GM inside news forum" it covers
many car lines.
Nov 28, 2009 (4:20 pm)
There's been several posts in the past 24 hours related to comparative pricing of mid-sized sedans. The general theme was, "Toyotas and Hondas are priced thousands more than Fords, Hyundai/Kias etc."
I follow pricing closely (a "hobby" I guess) and what I see is that the prices of, for example, the Fulan and Sonata are getting very close to those of the Camry. It's hard for me to keep up with pricing on the Accord, because for some reason none of my area Honda dealers advertise prices... ever (except lease deals). But I can still see price samples in the forums here.
Take for example the base Camry AT compared to the base Sonata AT:
2010 Hyundai Sonata GLS AT: MSRP $20,620, Invoice $19,776 (has $1000 rebate)
Sonata Price, Invoice less rebate: $18,776
2010 Ford Fusion S AT: MSRP $21,220, Invoice $19,791 (has $1500 rebate)
Fusion Price, Invoice less rebate: $18,291
2010 Toyota Camry Base AT: MSRP $21,195, Invoice $19,659 (has $500 rebate)
Camry Price, Invoice less rebate: $19,159
Of course it's possible that there are "hidden" incentives that would bring prices down further. But invoice less rebates wise, the base Camry is only $383 more expensive than the base Sonata, and only $868 more than the base Fusion. Not $2000 more, or even $1000 more. Interestingly, the Fusion is nearly $500 less than the Sonata; there is a common perception that Hyundai is the "low priced" brand (with Kia). That appears to be changing.
#13258 of 20223 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (4:28 pm)
For a long time, fleet sales had been dominated by GM, Chrysler and Ford. (Fleet sales are those made to government and commercial enterprises such as rental car companies).
Fleet sales tend to hurt residual values because cars sold to fleets usually end up on the auction block as used vehicles after a short period of time.
Since there's a lot of these cars coming up for sale, it drives down the prices.
Car buyers who purchase vehicles that are sold heavily to fleets can expect the value of their car to drop very fast, as has been the case with many Chrysler and GM cars that are mainly used as rental cars. This has hurt GM and Chrysler and so they've been cutting back on sales to fleets.
The largest seller of fleet vehicles is now Hyundai followed closely by Nissan. The percentage of cars sold to fleets is 34% for Hyundai and 29% for Nissan. As a comparison, only 15% of GM vehicles are now sold to fleets.
While most automakers are reporting double-digit drops in sales each month, Hyundai and Kia continue to swim against the current and maintain (or even increase) units sold. According to Automotive News, a significant part of their success is attributable to fleet sales – large numbers of cars going directly into rental and corporate fleets. During the first quarter of 2009 alone, more than 33 percent of Hyundai's first quarter sales of 95,854 units were fleet related. Rental car sales represented nearly 35 percent of Kia's sales during the same period.
The above two articles were in separate papers. Yes, Hyundai sales are up this year. However, an individual purchaser of those cars will see the value drop real fast as hyundai has been increasing their numbers via fleet sales. Are they going with fleet sales because they didn't learn from GM/Ford or do they not care who they sell to just so long as the increase their numbers? IDK