Last post on Dec 13, 2013 at 4:35 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#13246 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [dodgeman07]
Nov 28, 2009 (5:47 am)
Toyota's chairman stated that they had seemingly lost the desire to excel. This is the job of the Chairman, especially a new one, that is keeping the coals burning underneath everybody's feet. He's not satisfied so he's going to make life miserable for everybody until he is satisfied.
But yes I agree that they grew too fast here especially as they were looking to cash in on the mega-bucks in the truck/SUV segments. The money in these segments made for fat happy and dumb players. When you're used to making $2000 on a sedan and suddenly you see $10000, $15000 and $20000 profits on SUVs and trucks it's like a drug; c.f. the Detroit 3. They must get off that easy money high and get back to concentrating on making most of their money from $20000-$25000 vehicles.
But that's a different segment. In the sedans they continue to kick butt and take names. The Camry is approaching the No 1 nameplate every month. It's jumped over the the Silverado and it's going after the F150. The Corolla is simply crushing the Civic. Everybody else is a distant 3rd thru 10th place. This is not being caught napping. This is kicking butt month-after-month-after-month.
However they might be perceived the one metric that counts is sales volume. Anything else gets the winner a beauty pagaent crown.....and 2nd thru 10th place where it counts. BTW this conversation isn't new this year. It's been going on for at least 10 yrs and no one can figure out how and why Camry and Corolla sales stay as high as they are month-after-month-after-month.
It's because it's a business not a beauty pagaent.
#13247 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [elroy5]
Nov 28, 2009 (5:50 am)
"That's just it. American car buyers were virtually forced to try other brands. And it only seems natural they would have to be forced to go back"
That is what happened to me with Honda. I spent $75,000 since 2005 on new Honda cars and had numerous issue's with all of them. Somewhere along the way Honda started to give me flash backs to the GM customer service like Oh those rear brakes only lasted 20,000 miles well thats normal wear yep thats it, normal wear. With all the recalls Toyota is having I don't feel like they are any better so I picked the Fusion. The only good thing I can say about Honda is the resell value is very high compared to others. Ford screwed its resell value back in the day on the Taurus because of its Hertz rental car business. If you look back on the reliability ratings those old Taurus's did very well in the reliability ratings. With the competition as tight as it is in the sedan segment it will be interesting to see how those companies can promote the resell value.
#13248 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [elroy5]
Nov 28, 2009 (7:53 am)
To say any midsize sedan will outsell the Camry, in the next 10 years, would be unrealistic.
We need to get you on Toyota's BOD! That would just about insure the competition's success.
It's a lot easier to get to the top than it is to stay there................
#13249 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [hackattack5]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:01 am)
Having to produce, then give away a huge number of vehicles was the double-pronged pitchfork that skewered GM and Ford. They had to produce a huge number of vehicles to cover their fixed costs..whether they could sell this number or not. When they couldn't sell these numbers they then were forced to
a) initiate give away programs like Employee Pricing for Everyone ( Please take these vehicles ! )
b) massive fleet sales at breakeven pricing.
Both prongs skewered the retail buyers and drove down the resale prices.
Hopefully in the reorganizations this year the D3, along with the rest of the industry, will learn how to balance production and demand. This alone will eliminate the need to give away the vehicles thus drive up resale prices. However it also means that on the retail side the makers are going to try to get higher prices from the everyday buyer.
In this they have a long row to hoe. Toyota's and Honda's normally sell for $1000-$2000 more than the typical D3 midsizer or a Hyundai/Kia. Think about how that affects resale prices and how that affects the profitability of each maker.
400,000 units x $1000.....
#13250 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [hackattack5]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:14 am)
With the competition as tight as it is in the sedan segment it will be interesting to see how those companies can promote the resell value.
Well, to be honest, only Honda and Toyota can promote high resale because they are the two that stand at the top. They are followed by Subaru, Nissan, VW and Mazda. Then we have Hyundai, Ford, Chevy and Kia. This is how they play out in the wholesale world.
I have noticed Honda's, particularly the Accord, has a stupid high book value and it is very common to get retail money from a wholesaler.
Now, there are many good cars on this list. Unfortunately, being a good car is not going to automatically put you at the top with Honda and Toyota. Take the Sonata for example. You can buy a new one so cheap it hurts the resale value. Why do you think Hyundai promotes rebates and special financing and not leasing? Because they wither away to nothing very fast.
Nissan and Mazda have really tried to boost their resale value of the Altima and Mazda6, but, have struggled to do so. I think those two cars are more impressive then both the Accord and Camry, by a long shot.
Subaru has done a great job with the Legacy. Subaru is really on a roll lately, and they seemed to have figured out something and are running with it. Personally, I am really turned off by the new Legacy. I think it became cheap and very uninspiring to drive. Add ugly to boot.
Ford has done a wonderful job with their recent ad campaign with the Fusion, as well as the rest of their lineup. They are really getting people to think American again. I drove a new Fusion myself, and I really do not like the interior. It just does not do it for me. The outer styling is nice, and conservative at the same time. The power train is good, and I would not hesitate to buy one based on that. But, it will be quite sometime before the resale can be a factor.
The Malibu resale will continue to get destroyed as long as Chevy keeps pumping mass units into rental service. I think they put waaaaay to many into rental service and it will hurt overall reliability and resale. Ford was smart and scaled back rentals, as did Mazda.
#13251 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [dodgeman07]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:15 am)
Which is precisely why the Chairman has to step up and state that he's not at all satisfied with the company as it reached the top. Crack that whip....
The big reason why I don't see any of the others taking over the top spot is that there is no trend in either the Camry or Corolla that they are losing sales, in fact they seem to be solidifying their position on the top spots. Outside of that the other makers simply don't have the capacity to suddenly double production and sales. Where would these new Malibu's come from? How could Hermosillo jump it's production by more than 50% suddenly ( 'suddenly' is 5 yrs in auto production terms ). The Accord is maxxed out in Marysville. Hyundai simply doesn't have the distribution network to move that many vehicles.
This assumes also that both Toyota and Honda stand still and do nothing.
What has happened is that the bottom-dwellers, except for Chrysler, have improved dramatically so that the separation from top to bottom is very very small. This is good for all of us buying vehicles in this segment.
#13252 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [m6user]
Nov 28, 2009 (8:20 am)
This is a few stats from the 2009 USA "car" sales as per The Wall Street Journal.
(car sales only not trucks or suv's etc)
maker tot. sales % 2009 v's 2008 % sales f/ oct. 2009 market share
GM 731,434 -33.2 -11.4 8.5
FORD 491,997 -16.8 -10.7 5.7
TOY 913,515 -24.0 +1.5 10.6
HONDA 599,429 -23.6 -3.7 6.9
NISSAN 429,866 -18.2 +1.8 5.0
HYUNDAI 282,443 +55.8 +55.9 3.3
MAZDA 121,478 -22.2 -1.2 1.4
CHRYSLER 187,308 -47.6 -29.7 2.2
SUZUKI 3,774 -81.0 -99.5 ?
VW 149,187 -16.0 +15.8 1.7
There are many more listed, this is just a few.
#13253 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (9:00 am)
For some reason my stats on the post got jammed togather, they were apart.
After the car maker is the total sales for the 2009 year, the next number is
the percentage of sales compared to 2008, example (GM is -33.2) the next
figure is the sales for October 2009, example (FORD is +10.7) and last is
their % of US market share f/ 2009 sales. All of this is on the web site listed.
#13254 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (9:27 am)
Amongst the top 20 vehicles at your link, the Fusion sales are one of the few showing a YTD increase at +15.3%. Camry is -23.7%, Accord -26.6%, Altima -29.8%, Malibu -12.8%.
Legacy sales are also up, at +14.5%.
#13255 of 20249 Re: No V6 in the '11 Sonata? [8babies1dog]
Nov 28, 2009 (9:44 am)
Good data. The WSJ publishes this market data every month. It's useful IMO but they don't keep prior months' data AFAIK.