Last post on May 21, 2013 at 5:27 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#12729 of 18198 Manuals in midsize cars
Jun 24, 2009 (6:20 am)
They currently still cost less.
They don't necessarily use less fuel anymore and when they do the difference may be negligable...at least they way they configure them on actual (midsize) cars.
Rewarding driving experience depends on the driver, for most the manual is just an annoyance. It is no longer certain to be quicker, as evidenced by the recent comparison of a 4 cylinder midsize (was it the Mazda6) where the auto out accelerated the manual all the way to about 85 mph. Then there is the whole issue of DSG type transmissions perhaps starting to come in to play...will Ford be putting their "power shift" in the Fusion any time soon?
Another advantage they had was that you typically had gotten one or two extra gears over the 3 and 4 speed automatics. This is now typically not the case...and in fact you may effectively lose the top gear in some cars. In my 2007 Mazda6, for example, 5th gear in the manual has a ratio that is fairly close to 4th in the auto. In my wife's 2005 Jetta the auto has a 6th gear that did not exist in the manual.
#12731 of 18198 Re: Sonata or Accord/Camry [chris789]
Jun 24, 2009 (7:32 am)
Since the Sonata costs a few thousand less up front, the fact that a Camry or Accord is worth more in resale is expected. While a used Sonata can be a great deal, there were major improvements for 2009 that you might find to your liking. There are some used 2009s out there, though--that model was introduced early in 2008. The 2010s are nearly here, so you might find some really good deals on 2009 Sonatas now. That might be true of the Camry also--the 2010s just arrived, and while they do have some improvements (e.g. more powerful I4 engine, standard VSC) it is basically the same car.
At any rate, you could drive the Sonata and get pricing even if only to have more negotiating power with the Toyota and Honda dealers. Another car to check out is the 2009 Optima--pricing is a little lower than the Sonata, but it has a suspension that is more tuned for handling than is the Sonata. If you like the way the Accord handles vs. the Camry, you may find the Optima more to your liking than the Sonata. But if you prefer the ride of the Camry, check out the Sonata GLS or Limited (SE has a sport-tuned suspension).
#12732 of 18198 Re: Manuals in midsize cars [jeffyscott]
Jun 24, 2009 (8:49 am)
The only reason to buy a manual today is because you like them, for whatever reason (cheaper, less complicated, more fun, etc.). They no longer have performance or fuel economy advantages. I drove sticks for years but I don't want one as a daily driver in Atlanta traffic. I do want one in the mustang gt convertible I plan to buy in a few years but that won't be a daily driver.
Ford's powershift DSGs will show up first on the Fiesta. It's more fuel efficient than a regular 6 speed so it will be targeted at smaller cars. Larger versions that can handle more torque are on the way but nothing is confirmed beyond the Fiesta. I'd bet the Fusion won't see one before 2011 - they just have so many other things to work on first.
#12733 of 18198 Re: Manuals in midsize cars [akirby]
Jun 24, 2009 (8:53 am)
I agree that today's automatics are worlds beyond what was available even ten years ago. The best of them are finally approaching the immediate response of a manual.
But I'm not sure I'm ready to ditch the last manual in my stable and go automatics-only.
#12734 of 18198 Re: Toyota owns Subaru [jeffyscott]
Jun 24, 2009 (9:29 am)
"I'd pay $1000 extra and even more
Agreed. If they loved their sticks so much they wouldn't have a problem paying extra. The argument of why should I pay more for less is kind of like eating at a French restaurant, you get less but it is supposedly so much better that you shouldn't mind paying $100 a plate. It's called exclusivity. If the manufacturers thought they could sell em(at a profit) ....they'd make em.
#12735 of 18198 Re: Toyota owns Subaru [m6user]
Jun 24, 2009 (11:59 am)
There may be some other factors as to why there are less models with a manual. CARB is one reason, since the computer cant control the driver, it may not be able to meet certain regulations, where an automatic that is computer controlled and regulated can meet those standards. Years ago a manual was standard, an automatic was an option, today it is more efficient to have an automatic and with only one transmission option, that means less stock on the assembly line, less overhead, etc. The automatic also doesn't need the clutch pedal, master/slave setup, etc. so less parts to supply, and less configurations of the main chassis to have.
You cant put a manual on an engine built for an automatic, so you would need engines designed for manuals, along with the associated PCM. The engine would have different linkages, different flywheel, and other accessories, so overall it is less expensive to a car line to stick with one transmission type on a car run, than to have a manual as an option.
#12736 of 18198 Re: Toyota owns Subaru [acdii]
Jun 24, 2009 (1:07 pm)
The reverse is also true. If they can charge extra for an auto trans and make money they can do the reverse.
As far as CAFE is concerned, since most of the EPA numbers still show the manual trannies getting the same or better MPG I don't think that is of any consideration at this point. Could be in the future though. Right now I think it's strictly a demand thing that drives the production numbers.....not CAFE.
#12737 of 18198 Re: Toyota owns Subaru [elroy5]
Jun 24, 2009 (3:30 pm)
Slush boxes, as you call them, are better than they used to be. Many times they get better mileage than their manual counterparts. Today's computer controlled automatic transmission is hard to beat. Get with the program.
Oh good point. I will now just change my likes and wants to meet your paradigm. I stand corrected. /sarcasm
#12738 of 18198 Re: Manuals in midsize cars [akirby]
Jun 24, 2009 (3:32 pm)
Ford's powershift DSGs will show up first on the Fiesta. It's more fuel efficient than a regular 6 speed so it will be targeted at smaller cars.
...replacing the "premium automatic" (read: slushbox) as that transmission can't hit the same fuel economy numbers
Larger versions that can handle more torque are on the way but nothing is confirmed beyond the Fiesta. I'd bet the Fusion won't see one before 2011 - they just have so many other things to work on first.
Volvo has it in Europe, slightly different but related transmission.