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Midsize Sedans 2.0

18220 messages,  Last post on May 24, 2013 at 7:58 AM

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What is this discussion about? Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1258 of 1822

#12571 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [acdii] by aviboy97

May 16, 2009 (7:10 pm)

Replying to: acdii (May 15, 2009 11:59 am)
One other thing to consider, Resale value!!! You will make up the difference between a lower class I4 model vs the Hybrid, sine the Hybrid holds its value far more than the non Hybrid. I flipped my Prius and made money
 
I have a friend that is a Toyota dealer that has 7 used Prius' on his lot that he owns for more then he can retail them for because the value on used Prius' have dropped tremendously especially with Toyota offering rebates on the 09's.
 
I took in a 2006 Toyota Prius with nav and 46K on it for $12,500 and only got a high bid of $11,750 at the auction. WTF!!! Edmunds seems to think this car is worth $19K on the retail side. What a load of garbage. One can buy a new Honda Insight for penny's more. Heck, even a left over Prius (there are many out there)
 
I have come to the conclusion that the resale value was highly overrated. With gas well below $3.00/gal, the dire "need" for a hybrid is over stated
 
While Hybrids excel in fuel economy and burning clean, they are a depreciating asset just like every other car. For people to get overly greedy and think they can actually turn a profit on one after putting 50K on it is just mind boggling to me.
 
Will a Hybrid version be worth more then their gas only 4 cyl stable mates? Absolutely. However, you pay more to begin with. Why buy a Ford Fusion Hybrid for $30K, when you can get a 2.5L Fusion for just over $20K.
 
It all comes down to me not falling for the "hybrid hype". It's a matter of personal opinion. I have nothing against Hybrids. They are wonderful for the environment and for many in the general population, but, not for me.

#12572 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [aviboy97] by lilengineerboy

May 17, 2009 (6:18 am)

Replying to: aviboy97 (May 16, 2009 7:10 pm)
I flipped my Prius and made money
 
I know 3 people who did that Miatas and one with a Porsche Boxter. I don't think you would be able to do that today with a Prius.
 
It all comes down to me not falling for the "hybrid hype". It's a matter of personal opinion. I have nothing against Hybrids. They are wonderful for the environment and for many in the general population, but, not for me.
 
This is what it comes down to: non-financial/economic reasons for owning a hybrid. My mom wants a hybrid. She has a 12 year old mini-van with 60k - so about 5k/yr. How long do you think the break-even will be on any hybrid for her?

#12573 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [lilengineerboy] by akirby

May 17, 2009 (7:41 am)

Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 17, 2009 6:18 am)
non-financial/economic reasons for owning a hybrid.
 
Which is perfectly fine. The problem is when people try to justify owning a hybrid for purely financial reasons and then use fuzzy math or inaccurate data to back it up.

#12574 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [akirby] by acdii

May 17, 2009 (10:08 am)

Replying to: akirby (May 17, 2009 7:41 am)
Which is perfectly fine. The problem is when people try to justify owning a hybrid for purely financial reasons and then use fuzzy math or inaccurate data to back it up.
 
Here is the thing that gets me, trying to compare the Hybrid version to a Lessor model. For the Prius, there is NO comparison, none whatsoever. There is no other car in its class like it. The Insight is in the compact car class, so you cant even compare it to that one. Right now the Prius isn't moving, wait, gas will go back up to $4 a gallon, then they will once again sell at a premium.
 
I bought the Camry Hybrid because I drive a LOT, 500 miles a week is the norm, that adds up to a LOT of gas used, so for me the less gas I can use to get to and from work everyday the better, and until the Fusion Hybrid came out, there was no other car on the market with the interior room and power that gets the MPG of the TCH. As it sits now, I could use about 3 inches more back seat width to make it the perfect family sedan. Crown Vic interior size with Camry Hybrid economy would be perfect, but alas not available. The only reason I went with the Camry over any other car, because they have the Hybrid, and 38 MPG daily driving, cant be beat. My daily drive is not really highway, though I travel 55 MPH, they are mostly county roads, then small city traffic, 35-45 MPH, 43 miles one way, toss in my lunch break, 100 miles a day. I have 2 small children in car seats and a teenager that occasionally rides with us too. The Prius, although a halfway decent car, could not fit my entire family when needed, so it went away, not practical.
 
So there you have it, I didn't buy mine for financial means, I bought it for its practicality. Had the Fusion been available in a Hybrid when I was looking, it more than likely would be the car instead. The days of the SUV and mini van are slowly coming to an end as gas goes up again, car manufactures need to take that into consideration when building cars, need to make them just a little bigger inside without compromising fuel efficiency. Same day I hope to see that.

#12575 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [lilengineerboy] by backy

May 17, 2009 (10:24 am)

Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 17, 2009 6:18 am)
How long do you think the break-even will be on any hybrid for her?
 
That's a big "depends" of course: on what she would buy instead of a Prius, on the price of gas in the future, and how much of her driving is "in town". But here is one scenario. She can plug in her own data and figure it other ways:
 
* Car driven almost all in-town.
* She is willing to learn how to drive the Prius efficiently (not "hypermiler" stuff, but simple tactics such as a light throttle to keep the ICE off as much as possible, and coasting to take advantage of the regenerative braking).
* Estimate in-town FE for the minivan about 17 mpg, Prius about 50 mpg (17 is about what my wife gets in town on a 3.3L Chrysler van, which has pretty typical fuel economy for minivans); i.e. estimate the Prius will get about 3 X the fuel economy of the minivan.
* Assume your mom would buy another minivan if she did not buy a Prius.
 
We know a 2010 Prius with a good dollop of equipment including all the key safety features will list for about $23k. A new minivan comparably equipped can be had for about $5k less, if your mom is willing to go with a brand like Chrysler or Hyundai/Kia. A Toyota or Honda would cost more (more on that later).
 
So assuming 5k miles a year, that would take about 300 gallons of gas in the minivan and 100 gallons in the Prius. At $4.00 a gallon (does anyone NOT think we'll be back up there in the next year or two?), that's $800 in gas a year.
 
So if your mom can find a minivan she likes for $18k, e.g. a Caravan SE or Sedona LX, it would take a bit over six years for payback--not including other differences such as insurance, maintenance, repairs, and depreciation (and THAT is a biggie here).
 
But if your mom wanted to stick with Toyota, a Sienna would not cost much less than the Prius. So the payback would come much sooner--again ignoring other factors.
 
Consider however that when looking at ALL factors, including depreciation, the financial benefit for your mom could be pretty substantial with the Prius--considering how long she keeps a car! In 12 years, she'd have saved about $10,000 in gas vs. a minivan (assuming an average of $4/gallon over that 12 years).
 
It does get complicated. But this kind of analysis is of interest to me because I might be in this situation in about 3 years--looking to replace my wife's minivan, driven about 10k/year mostly in town, with a smaller, long-term vehicle. I think the value proposition of a Prius will be pretty good, unless gas goes to $1 a gallon and stays there. Fat chance of that I think.

#12576 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [backy] by jeffyscott

May 17, 2009 (5:49 pm)

Replying to: backy (May 17, 2009 10:24 am)
Your comparison makes no sense. Why are the two choices a new minvan and a prius? Two logical comparisons would be a similar size vehicle, such as a new Corolla vs. the Prius or keeping the old minivan vs. a new Prius.
 
If she saves $5000 on the purchase price by buying a Corolla and earns an average of 3% per year by putting that money in CDs, that would generate $150 per year in addition to the $5000 itself. Even with your assumption that gas is going back to $4 per gallon (BTW, if you are so sure of that you should stop wasting your time here and find a way to profit from your certainty about the future of gas prices), the hybrid is probably still not going to make any financial sense in this situation.

#12577 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [jeffyscott] by backy

May 17, 2009 (6:26 pm)

Replying to: jeffyscott (May 17, 2009 5:49 pm)
I think it makes sense. I did say it was only ONE scenario, and that the mom needs to plug in her own data. The way I figured it, someone owns a 12-year-old minivan. So time for a new vehicle. A reasonable option would be a different minivan, since that is what she owns now. Another option is clearly the Prius, or else the original question about payback time would not have been asked. (Also, I made that choice myself in late 2003, so it happens in the real world).
 
I could say the comparison between the Corolla and Prius "makes no sense". You are comparing a compact sedan with a mid-sized hatchback. And nothing was said about "mom" wanting to trade the minivan for a compact sedan.
 
Anyway, the main point is, I talked about ONE scenario that would make a Prius look good in the financial sense. I also said that it DEPENDS on things like gas price and the vehicle that is the alternative to the Prius.
 
Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to buy some oil futures.

#12578 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [acdii] by lilengineerboy

May 17, 2009 (6:31 pm)

Replying to: acdii (May 17, 2009 10:08 am)
Here is the thing that gets me, trying to compare the Hybrid version to a Lessor model. For the Prius, there is NO comparison, none whatsoever.
 
I would say a Civic or a Corolla. One of which is infinitely more engaging to drive while returning stellar highway fuel economy. This whole game to make the Prius a midsized vehicle from the EPAs point of view is great, but in real life, my 18 month old, my wife, and myself couldn't fit 2 carry-on bags and a stroller in my MIL's Prius for a 3 day trip. When we tried to add her grandma and the walker, there was no way. The rental Fusion (and for that matter, my MIL's old '96 Accord) had no problems, and for those trips we had to bring sleeping bags.
 
The days of the SUV and mini van are slowly coming to an end as gas goes up again, car manufactures need to take that into consideration when building cars, need to make them just a little bigger inside without compromising fuel efficiency.
 
I don't know about that...I think the people that need an SUV will buy one (to pull a boat or a trailer, or drive a lot of kids around) and people that need a minivan will buy one (families, people who need the utility, etc).
 
I think the people who bought an SUV as a status symbol will move on to something else (perhaps a Prius) and the order will be restored. I think another issue with "minivans" is they aren't "mini" anymore. They are bigger than the short wheelbase full size vans of the past. Vans like the Mazda5 (which still hasn't really caught on) or a C-Max are more what I think of as minivans.
 
If its one person commuting by themselves every day and thats about it, I think a Prius is fine, if they like that kind of thing.

#12579 of 18220 Hybrid worth it? by cannon3

May 17, 2009 (6:45 pm)

Punch the numbers. You will pay at least $4,000 - $5,000 more for a Hybrid vehicle upfront. A good 4cyl sedan will get you at least 30-35 MPG Hwy. $4,000 dollars will buy you a whole lot of gas over the lifetime of a vehicle. Not to mention the battery life on these Hybrids... noone really knows how long they will last. Cost of replacement can run you upwards of $3,000!! ouch!!
On another note however. Environmental cost is another factor for some. A hybrid will use far less oil/fuel and spew out far less emmissions over its lifetime. As more and more of these Hybrids become available to consumers and as they become more mass produced. Prices will fall. Economics 101....

#12580 of 18220 Re: City Vs Highway in a Hybrid [backy] by lilengineerboy

May 17, 2009 (6:55 pm)

Replying to: backy (May 17, 2009 10:24 am)
Yeah, she won't be replacing the minivan (90 something Sienna) with another minivan. That was just for the sake of comparison. There is actually nothing wrong with it, so she is likely to not replace it at all right now...my folks like to be able to put their bikes in the back and can't seem to grasp the concept of a trailer hitch mounted bike rack.
 
If/when she does replace the van, it will very likely be a midsize sedan. I don't care what the EPA says, I have enough personal experience to say the Prius isn't midsize to me. The other issue to contend with is she has yet to have a favorable interaction with a Prius, so in reality, thats not in the running. I don't like the car either so that isn't helping, but I don't like the car she has now either, but its not my car. I will strongly object to anything I think totally sucks, but who am I to decide what fits her needs?
 
Gas has been predicted to be at sub-$3 for the next year (as stated in April) so I am not worried about that right this second, and that will put off payback further.
 
Right now she is kind of keen on the FuLans, but still undecided about the FFH vs. the 4 cyl SEL. She said the Camry is too "little old lady" for her (that cracked me up...before she got the van she said she was considering a full size Buick!), and she doesn't like the way the new Accord looks. She likes my Accord but wants a slushbox so that easy out is blocked. And she won't go for a European car.

Messages Page 1258 of 1822

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