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Midsize Sedans 2.0

18224 messages,  Last post on May 25, 2013 at 11:11 AM

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What is this discussion about? Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Volkswagen Passat, Mazda MAZDA6, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Malibu, Kia Optima, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Messages Page 1209 of 1824

#12072 of 18224 Re: Camry vs Accord sales-436000 vs 37200 in 2008 [backy] by jeffyscott

Mar 14, 2009 (9:57 am)

Replying to: backy (Mar 14, 2009 8:32 am)
I'm sure the price is part of it, but Accord is "only" off 37% year to date, I doubt that either they or Mazda would consider that to be close to the same as a 49% decline. Selling at 63% of prior years rate (a 37% drop) would be nearly 25% more units than selling 51% represents.
 
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/1097/releases/4957
 
The Fusion is also "only" down 35% ytd.
 
http://media.ford.com/images/10031/February09sales.pdf
 
If this new Mazda6 is so much more appealing than the old one, it would not, I think, be seeing a 49% drop. Or put it this way, perhaps it is more appealing to the average buyer, but there is no real reason for that average buyer (who is looking for a transportation appliance) to prefer the Mazda6 over the Accord or Camry.

#12073 of 18224 Re: Camry vs Accord sales-436000 vs 372000 in 2008 [dave8697] by deltheking

Mar 14, 2009 (9:58 am)

Replying to: dave8697 (Mar 14, 2009 8:50 am)
The problem with the malibu and the aura-- are not 1-2 yr dependability,performance or even long term resale.The problem,I would say is long term relaibility.Any sedan nowadays is ok till 60-70k miles,,but the true indicator of reliability is how cars perform after 75k miles.
In that aspect,Camry and Accord have a long lasting record.Whereas the malibu and aura are relatively unknown .Yes first 3 or 4 years ,they are fine,,after that who knows?
If the quality has really improved,,it would take atleast 5 more years for real long term reliability.
Same thing for the fusion.Lasts 3 years were good.Now the real test comes in the next 3 - 4 years.
Honda and Toyota did not get an easy pass..They have decades of proven reliability to back up their record.
Infact ,i would say,,cars nowadays have an easier pass than say some 20 years ago.The first toyota,honda and hyundai cars were the butt of all jokes.
But see, how remarkably they have reached the top.Infact,,if any,,american sedans get an easier pass-- just an improvement over a previous model becomes a game changer.Maybe very true,,but long term reliability trends are needed.[[ and long term is like 85k+miles or more ,,not 30k miles]]

#12074 of 18224 Paying extra for what? by cannon3

Mar 14, 2009 (11:27 am)

I am living proof you don't have to pay the premium price that Honda and Toyota demand for their vehicles either new or used. I am one of those folks who test drove and test drove every car in this segment before settling on a domestic brand vehicle in 2006. I paid between $3,000 - $5,000 less for a like optioned vehicle. I was told by many Honda/Toyota owners that I would be sorry, my car would break down, ect.. Well, after 42,000 trouble free, squeak free, rattle free miles, now what argument? I made a great choice and have never looked back.. I believe I am a growing number of consumers that are finding out that you don't need to pay a lot of $$$ to get a reliable, well made vehicle.
And before this vehicle I owned another domestic vehicle that went over 110,000 miles with no issues. Looks to me this argument of longterm reliability is down the tubes. There is also an article on the net about how a New York cab company using Escape Hybrids that have well over 100,000 reliable miles on them..

#12075 of 18224 Re: Paying extra for what? [cannon3] by stephen987

Mar 14, 2009 (11:50 am)

Replying to: cannon3 (Mar 14, 2009 11:27 am)
Cannon3, it's true that most cars are reliable in the first 100k miles (or 75k, or whatever lesser number you choose). So your 42k trouble-free miles, which would have been noteworthy 20-30 years ago, really can't tell us much.
 
Expectations have changed. Customers now expect far more than 100k miles of reliability. So it's too soon to tell if your 2006 model is really going to be reliable over the long haul. It probably will be, if it's a recent Ford or GM midsize sedan, but we don't know yet.

#12076 of 18224 Re: Camry vs Accord sales-436000 vs 37200 in 2008 [jeffyscott] by backy

Mar 14, 2009 (11:51 am)

Replying to: jeffyscott (Mar 14, 2009 9:57 am)
Did you look at the numbers for February? The Mazda6's percentage decline is within a point or two of Accord and Camry. In fact I think those cars were a little higher percentage-wise in sales drop-offs in February than the Mazda6. So the current trend is looking better for the Mazda6--maybe due to increased incentives of late?
 
Don't you think the huge price difference between the 2008 close-out specials and the all-new 2009s has something to do with the sales drop-off? This was not a factor for Accord, Camry, or Fusion, at least up until now. It will be interesting to see how Fusion sales hold up if incentives and discounts are cut for the 2010 models. Will sticker shock reign?

#12077 of 18224 Re: Paying extra for what? [cannon3] by deltheking

Mar 14, 2009 (12:36 pm)

Replying to: cannon3 (Mar 14, 2009 11:27 am)
As I said in my post above #12072,,, all modern cars are ok till 60-70k miles.Nowadays folks drive to more than. 120k miles easily.
And it is the long term reliability which is important.
42k miles on a modern car is absolutely nothing.Wait till 85k atleast for long term reliability.

#12078 of 18224 Re: Camry vs Accord sales-436000 vs 37200 in 2008 [backy] by mz6greyghost

Mar 14, 2009 (12:56 pm)

Replying to: backy (Mar 14, 2009 11:51 am)
Not only are the sales drops in percentage about the same as the CamCord, but you also have to remember that at least 30% of sales of the 6 in 2008 were to fleets (rental agencies). For '09, I've heard from more than one source that those fleet sales have been scaled back considerably.
 
Considering I've seen (and rented) more than a few previous-gen 6's, while not seeing a single '09 rental yet...

#12079 of 18224 Re: Camry vs Accord sales-436000 vs 37200 in 2008 [mz6greyghost] by backy

Mar 14, 2009 (1:16 pm)

Replying to: mz6greyghost (Mar 14, 2009 12:56 pm)
Coincidentally, the last rental I had (Hertz) was a 2008 Mazda6i. They originally gave me a 3, but its battery was dead. I was glad it was, because it was in LA and the 6 handled the bumpy freeways much better than the 3 (I got a 3 on my previous trip there and it was not a pleasant experience). I appreciated the handling of the 6 too. As good as the new 6 is, the old one was a pretty darn nice car also, with clean styling that I think will hold up well over time and a back seat that, while not biggest in the class, is fine for kids or even two normal-sized adults, if the people in front are under 6 feet.
 
I am actually sad that there are fewer Mazda6's in fleets now, because it means I'll have little chance of getting one as a rental car. Might have to get something like a Sebring.

#12080 of 18224 Malibu rental by sandman_6472

Mar 14, 2009 (2:13 pm)

Folks,
 
The Malibu I rented was an '08 LT version which is probably the mid level new version. And I stand by what I wrote earlier Vanman...the '08 Accord LX-P that we traded into was a far superior car...it even had a FULL power seat instead of the 1/2 one which cheap GM has in the few GM cars I've rented recently. The Accord could've been the EX model, but it did have cloth seats and a 8 way power seat. And about the articles people have wrote...articles, smarticles! I go by how the cars drive according to my tastes, not some writer. This is the reason why the Camcord's are head and shoulders above the Malibu/Aura twins from GM.
 
We each have own own opinions no matter what you might think and all I can say is just look at the numbers...the numbers don't lie and they tell what the majority of mid size sedan drivers want to buy. Personally, I wouldn't really buy a GM mid sizer no matter how much of a rebate it had. That "intangible goodness" I always refer to just isn't there in the GM offerings. It's like "class"...either you have it, or you don't...period!
 
That's the great thing about these forums, we can all "agree to disagree".
 
The Sandman

#12081 of 18224 Re: Paying extra for what? [deltheking] by dave8697

Mar 14, 2009 (2:21 pm)

Replying to: deltheking (Mar 14, 2009 12:36 pm)
As I said in my post above #12072,,, all modern cars are ok till 60-70k miles.Nowadays folks drive to more than. 120k miles easily.
And it is the long term reliability which is important.
42k miles on a modern car is absolutely nothing.Wait till 85k atleast for long term reliability.
 
This is good. A guy saves $3000-5000 up front, and the mistake he is unknowingly making is a reliability drop off after 85,000 miles as compared to the reliability drop off of a Camcord? By that time, the savings is turned into $5-7000 with interest and if the Domestic car needs a few hundred dollars repair after the 100,000 mile powertrain warranty expires, that's a disaster?
 
I bought 3 used domestics in the 85,000 mile range since 2004. That is 5 years on one, 4 years on another, and 2 years on the third one since then. 136,000 miles have been added to them in those 11 years of ownership. Only one refused to start once and it was the starter motor at 168k miles. They have needed very little and they are late 90's models which are from about 3 generations ago in Domestic quality. Important? They could have been twice as unreliable and it would still be insignificant.
 
Per KBB: Chevrolet's Malibu has bolted from middle-of-the-road contender straight to the top of the mid-size sedan game. The 2009 Malibu looks wonderful, is solidly built and carefully crafted inside and out, offers good fuel economy, drives wonderfully and is priced to sell in serious volumes. The 2009 Chevrolet Malibu's bold, attractive sheetmetal and stylish interior touches are backed by confident handling, a quiet ride and an overall level of refinement competitive with the category's best.

Messages Page 1209 of 1824

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